God Damned Fundies!
|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Steve Kemp
|Sub: Re: Dark Shadows
|Date: 12 Jan 01 21:00:34
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From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Steve Kemp
(posted TO: Steve Kemp)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Steve Kemp
>> Basically, "dark matter" or "non-baryonic matter"
>> (weird matter which is almost impossible to detect
>> except by its gravitational effects)
> I know what dark matter is postulated to be, and it's
> NOT exclusively non-baryonic matter.
Uh, Steve, you're being anal retentive. I specifically spelled out several
times exactly what I meant by "dark matter" in my answer -- you quoted one
specific instance of it right there. And "dark matter" is considered to
be
a term that refers primarily to non-baryonic matter, by such worthies as
Richard Morris, Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg, Paul Davies and Kip
Thorne, as well as a host of others. Furthermore, since Wayne stated that
he "didn't buy" dark matter, I had to assume that he was _not_ referring
to
mere non-radiating baryonic matter, since he's sitting on a big chunk of
it
we like to call Earth. :-) Finally, since "hot dark matter" in the form
of
neutrinos has been detected (and, if they have sufficient mass, could even
be sufficient to close the universe by themselves), I would assume that
Wayne is referring solely to more exotic forms of non-baryonic dark matter
such as WIMPS, axions, shadow matter, cosmic strings, etc.
Now, how about you settle down before I slap a light cone on your ass? :-)
>> The problem with recycling universes is that
>> the laws of thermodynamics prevent a universe
>> from cycling infinitely between bang-crunch-bang.
>> Such a process would "quickly" (in very, very few
>> rebounds) produce a dead, open universe.
> That's debatable.
To paraphrase Stephen Hawking, if you plan to debate the laws of
thermodynamics, you don't have much of a chance. The laws of thermodynamics
don't let anyone win, break even, or quit the game.
> Especially considering that each new "Bang" would be
> anew and surely equal in energy/mass as the previous
> ones
Entropy doesn't refer to how _much_ energy is around, it refers to how much
_usable_ energy is around -- it's not how much energy you've got, but the
disequilibrium. You are confused, but I forgive you willingly. I also
suggest that we take further discussions on this topic to private mail as
we've probably bored everyone else to tears with all this stuff. :-) I
would be quite happy to continue the discussion there if you like, and
assure you that I harbor no ill feelings.
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Steve Kemp
|Sub: Re: Zwicky
|Date: 12 Jan 01 21:18:30
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From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Steve Kemp
(posted TO: Steve Kemp)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Steve Kemp
To make sure my usage of the term "dark matter" was correct, I took a look
at the definition proposed by the originator, Fritz Zwicky. (I promise,
folks, last post here on the topic):
Zwicky's definition of dark matter was: "Matter that neither emits _nor
absorbs_ light, our primary means of observation." [Emphasis mine]
I also found this, which I thought was entertaining:
"Zwicky had a difficult personality, and intentionally intimidated his quiet
colleague Baade. Zwicky was also fond of calling people 'spherical
bastards,' because they were bastards every way he looked at them. He used
to prowl the halls of the astronomy building at Caltech (Robinson Hall),
accosting unfamiliar students with the interrogation 'Who the hell are
you!?'"
Hec
http://www.hectorplasmic.com
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 08:40:00
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-=> Quoting God Dan to Sally Springett <=-
BN> I save the chicken fat for pie crusts. No, really. None of
SS> Is it really as good as lard?
GD> Best guess is that you'd have to confirm that with Ed Wierd...
I thought that was Cornish game hens.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 08:41:00
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-=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
JW> Jeremiah. P. Ostriker (In 2000 he won the U.S. National medal of
JW> Science) And Paul j. Steinhardt, both of Princeton.
In what discipline? I'm really tired of the so-called 'credentials' of
creationists. Their list of 'scientists' looks impressive, too. Until
you start to notice that there's not one BIOLOGIST in the bunch. (Several
economists and engineers, though)
So these people could be scientists and still not know what they're
talking about. I'm not likely to have any confidence in an inorganic
chemist talking about cosmology. And if you do, then maybe you need to
see a proctologist the next time your teeth need cleaned.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 07 Jan 01 15:10:00
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MG> Why do some christians hate homosexuals?
RS> You'd have to ask THEM.
GD> So, you love homosexuals. Which one are you married to?
You seem to have a very limited list of
possibilities. Why are there only these
extremes?
I love my sisters and brothers, but I
wouldn't want to live with any of them. :^)
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Fuzzy logic: a Vulcan contemplating a tribble.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: Biblical contradicti
|Date: 07 Jan 01 18:48:00
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DH> It is, after all, the context out of which you have been taking
DH> everything you *have* read.
CJ> Robert, the below does not help at all Dave understand why
CJ> you haven't even bother to read through this book that you think to
CJ> be so wonderful above any other book. The more you talk it up, the
CJ> harder it is for Dave (and me, and even probably your pastor/priest)
CJ> to understand why you haven't bothered to read it all the way
CJ> through.
RS> I received a new Bible for Christmas,
RS> and I'm reading it currently.
CJ> Be sure to compare parallel passages closely, asking yourself
CJ> such questions as "Who killed Goliath?" "Was it Satan or God that's
CJ> responsible for suckering David into taking the census?" "Who went
CJ> to the tomb of Jesus, when, and what did they see" etc.
RS> I believe the accounts I've read in the
RS> Bible, of people witnessing miracles.
CJ> Why those miracles instead of the miracles in the sacred
CJ> books of other religions?
RS> These are what I've been exposed to,
RS> so far. That's like asking me why I
RS> haven't read many different science
RS> texts.
CJ> Science hangs together. Different religions don't.
CJ> Do you or don't you believe in the claims of miracles of
CJ> religions that don't believe in your God?
I must claim ignorance. Perhaps
situations could occur, where we
are talking of the same God,
without realizing it.
RS> I have had experiences that I believe
RS> reinforce much of what I've heard and read.
CJ> Most religionists of other religions also make that claim.
CJ> No response?
What would you have me say? I would
expect them to do so.
RS> I have thought about the complexities of
RS> the universe and cannot fathom a more
RS> logical explanation for its intricacy.
CJ> Have you examined other explanations? I rather have a
CJ> fondness for the ancient Greek one of chaos for an indefinite
CJ> period, which eventually threw up the Titans, who then got going
CJ> on the universe.
RS> But, chaos of WHAT? Where did that
RS> "something" come from to be in chaos?
CJ> Chaos, by definition, is the *absence* of something--an
CJ> ordering power. But randomicity can throw up order (the
CJ> proverbial example being monkeys at a typewriter that will
CJ> eventually produced something readable.)
This does not address the issue of WHAT
was in chaos. (I don't truely expect that
monkeys with typewriters WILL produce a
novel, regardless the amount of time
available.)
RS> To me, the power that is capable of
RS> creating something from absolutely
RS> nothing is God. This "beginning" is
RS> necessary for my mind, and establishes,
RS> to me, that God is, because we are.
CJ> The vacuum is capable of creating something. Read up on
CJ> physics and "quantum fluctuations," "virtual particle pairs,"
CJ> "Lamb shift," etc.
Where did the energy come from?
CJ> What may be necessary for your mind does not mean necessary
CJ> for the universe.
True; but, it's a limit within myself
that I recognize.
CJ> "Beginning" and "creation" requires time to exist; yet it
CJ> is as nonsensical to speak of time outside space-time as to
CJ> speak of driving a car over the ocean.
CJ> It is man that created the notion of "God," etc.
I admit that this is true, for me. See
above about my need for an origin.
CJ> Incidentally, many early Christians did not think well of
CJ> the supernatural figure they held created the universe.
OK.
RS> I trust many people smarter than I who also
RS> believe and have studied in great detail,
RS> the Bible and Christianity.
CJ> Not everyone who's studied those two in detail are Christians.
RS> True. But, those whom I know, are.
CJ> You're corresponding with one who isn't.
And, in time, I may get to know you, too.
RS> I have not seen evidence that is contrary
RS> to a devine creator.
CJ> Sad to say, there is considerable evidence against a
CJ> Creator who is both benevolent and omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
RS> I cannot agree, as I don't have
RS> enough knowledge of His "plans" and
RS> "thought processes" to say what His
RS> "actions" and "inactions" really mean,
RS> just as a child may not understand the
RS> actions of their parent.
CJ> One of my favorite examples is the Guinea worm, widespread ...
CJ> ... The only method was to split the tip of a stick, splash water
CJ> on the sore so that the egg-laying end of the GW would protrude,
CJ> and clamp the split end of the stick onto the end of the GW.
CJ> However, attempting to yank the GW out or even to roll it out all
CJ> at once would break the GW, which would then die and putrefy within
CJ> the patient. One had to slowly give the stick one twist a day.
CJ> What kind of a sick fuck would deliberately create something
CJ> like that?
I must admit that I do not
understand why.
TTYL and thanks for an informative post.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * When your head's in the sand, your ass is a target.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 12 Jan 01 18:16:00
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RS> It is they that keep crying to provide
RS> evidence, and they that demand that I
RS> denounce God.
DM> Bullshit.
Look over the messages that are addressed
to me and see for yourself. They ask, and
THEN I try to provide that which I can.
DM> Provide some real evidence for any god here and
DM> you'll see all sorts of WOAs converting on the spot.
DM> Who _demands_ that you denounce god? Name that person
DM> and give the quote.
I don't archive the posts. I can't even
tell you who it was, as I didn't try to
memorize his name. As I said above, just
look over the posts that are addressed to
me and you should find more than one
instance. Paraphrasing: Admit that there
never is, was, or could be a God. NOW!
DM> Personally, I don't give much of a shit one way or another
DM> _what_ you do with your imaginary superfriend, so long as you
DM> do not expect my support in your doing it.
The only support that I expect is
support of my right to believe.
RS> I have experienced things that I
RS> consider to be evidence. If you do not
RS> consider them to be evidence, so be it.
DM> And people who have wet dreams may suppose themselves to
DM> have had intimate relations with Julia Roberts, too. If
DM> nobody else (including Julia Roberts) shares their fond
DM> suppositions, so be it.
No argument.
RS> I see no need to "be so mean", in any
RS> case; and I now expect "meanness" from
RS> the majority here, so it has no effect.
DM> It certainly does not seem to have spurred you to
DM> thinking more clearly.
Do you really expect "meanness" to spur
clear thinking? Seems to me, that's the
opposite of what is expected or intended.
TTYL and thanks for the post.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Do Not Disturb. I'm already disturbed!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 07 Jan 01 16:22:00
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JB> Nope. Because along with their data, they have to describe how
JB> they arrived at it. If their data is correct I can replicate it
JB> for myself, I don't even have to directly believe them.
RS> But, I'll bet you don't. You just
RS> take it on faith that you could.
JB> NO I DON'T TAKE IT "ON FAITH"...
JB> ... I have confidence ...
JB> But something spurious I will check out on my own or wait for
JB> the word from people I do have confidence in.
You are correct. "Confidence" is a
better choice of words.
JB> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
JB> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
JB> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose confidence.
JB> They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if they're lucky.
You mean, like cold fusion?
JB> Your religion will NEVER do any of these things. All they want
JB> is for you to believe with nothing to show you WHY you should
JB> believe.
You talk about "your religion" as if it were
a person or people, rather than a belief. *IT*
is what I believe (much of it, anyway). THEY
are people and fallible. Hopefully, THEY (as
I) are trying to figure it all out, and to do
"the right things".
TTYL and thanks for the post.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * A fool and his data are soon parted.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 07 Jan 01 16:52:00
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RS> Are you telling me that you do not
RS> have to have faith in the persons
RS> and methods that were used to develop
RS> the data which you take as evidence?
JB> Nope. Because along with their data, they have to describe how
JB> they arrived at it. If their data is correct I can replicate it
JB> for myself, I don't even have to directly believe them.
RS> But, I'll bet you don't. You just
RS> take it on faith that you could.
KS> And do you apply the same standard to your skepticism of
KS> evolution?
I'm not sure what you're asking here.
What I've been taught about evolution is
that it is incomplete. I'm not overly
concerned with whether it is true or not,
so I don't pursue it. I was just trying
to say (though poorly) that none of these
are absolutes.
Thanks for the post, Karl.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Love is grand. Divorce is fifty grand.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 07 Jan 01 18:03:00
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SA> So, if God created all from nothing, does that mean that God is
SA> nothing? Thought so...
RS> Anything that can create that which _is_,
RS> from absolutely nothing, cannot reasonably
RS> be called nothing.
SA> Why is it easier for you to believe that God has always existed
SA> than to say you just don't know what was there? The logical
SA> arguments in your statement are profound... the most straight
SA> forward being who/what created the creator?
As I cannot find an end to the question
"But, where did THAT come from", I have
decided that there must be an ultimate
origin. I call that ultimate origin God,
because that's what I've been taught is
what others have called it. I have seen
nothing that makes me think that there
was not an origin.
Since I believe that an origin must
exist, I must also believe that that
ultimate origin must have created itself.
It also must have created everything
else, whether directly or indirectly.
Anything with THAT power cannot
reasonably be called nothing, IMO.
TTYL, Sue, and thanks for a great post.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Save the whales! Collect the whole set!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 07 Jan 01 19:24:00
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JB> And yet, there is MORE evidence for the Easter Bunny than
JB> there is for your god ...
RS> Justify this position.
DM> EGGS, Dimbulb.
RS> I guess I'm pretty dense.
DM> The inability to connect any dots whatsoever _does_ seem
DM> to be your presenting symptom, yes, but I am sure that this
DM> condition can be ameliorated, if not cured, by reading. Have
DM> you found any book on language and informal logic yet?
I know it's a cop-out, but I am having
trouble finding time to read the Bible
as well as technical magazines, etc. and
still respond here. HOLYSMOKE takes up
most all of my free time. Looking for
more information to read, at least for
now, is a very low priority.
RS> I don't understand your answer.
DM> And you expect people to be surprised by this admission?
No. Why should I?
RS> Are you saying that you have evidence of eggs that came
RS> from "the Easter Bunny"?
DM> I do not, but so far as the devotees of that imaginary
DM> superfriend are concerned, those eggs are evidence
DM> sufficient that their furry little buddy exists. This is an
DM> example of what you would call "faith dependent" evidence:
DM> it satisfies the believers and amuses everyone else.
Yet, she inferred that there IS
evidence. That's the position that
I wanted her to justify.
If colored eggs are the evidence,
religious artifacts are evidence,
too.
Thanks, Don. TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Not hungry. Not homeless. Will work for sex.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 07 Jan 01 19:28:00
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SM>> Either come up with evidence we will accept, Robert,
SM>> or admit that your God does not exist, never has
SM>> existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
Here's the quote that tells me to
denounce God. It was in one of your
replies to me (though, I realize
that you did not make the demand).
Thanks. I couldn't have sent it
without you (or someone else)
posting it again. I still couldn't
tell you the name of the poster.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Why can't women remember to put the seat back up?
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 07 Jan 01 22:20:00
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MG> The Bible says "in his image". I've asked you before..
MG> how are we different we are created in his image?
RS> "In His image" does not equal "exact replica".
KS> And that of course is the crux of the problem: What
KS> attributes ARE replicated, and which are NOT? By allowing
KS> any range of differences, you are effectively (very)
KS> promulgating a gap huge enough to 'explain away' any
KS> inconvenient contradictions.
I don't know. The ability to know
right from wrong and to choose
between them would probably be two
similarities. As I don't know, I
must leave "a gap huge enough to
'explain away' any inconvenient
contradictions".
KS> What human most closely approximates the original?...Jesse
KS> Jackson?... Adolph Hitler?...Alexander the Great?...you might
KS> as well claim to have an 'image' of an animal and it is that
KS> of a leopard, or a snail. Can't you see how ridiculous the
KS> idea is?
Have you ever looked at a drawing
made by a small child? :^)
Seriously. We aren't an image, we
are made in His image. I don't
know that any one person more
"closely approximates the original"
than does another.
RS> As for the differences and the similarities, I
RS> don't know. God can do anything. I cannot do as
KS> That might be so. But as yet, there's no evidence that she
KS> HAS done anything. Sorry.
RS> You keep trying to equate us with God.
RS> You cannot. God is the creator; the
RS> designer. He can do no wrong, whether
RS> we understand it or not.
KS> Believe it or not, I almost understand your mindset on this. God
KS> sends tornadoes to kill 100 people just to show everyone how much
KS> power he has. And the 2 who survive give thanks that they weren't.
KS> So everything is fine and dandy. That is the kind of shit that
KS> really gyrates my hormones.
I don't know that this is not so.
I sure hope it's not.
RS> In both cases, as the creator, they can do
RS> no wrong in relation to what they create. It
KS> Just out of curiosity, if you had the ability to create a
KS> universe, or even a colony of 'intelligent' life, would you
KS> fuck with them like your perceived deity has allegedly done?
KS> Yes or no will be fine.
First, I don't claim to know why God
does or does not do anything. I don't
know that I can agree with "fuck with
them". That being said:
Being human, I might. I would hope to
be stronger than that, but `til it
happens, I really don't know.
This question made me think of a kid
watching ants. Ever mess with `em? ;^)
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Those who write the manuals, don't use the hardware.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: OBVIOUSLY NUTHIN' MUCH..
|Date: 07 Jan 01 23:46:00
EID:0b52 6227bdc0
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RS> The claim that He doesn't stop bad stuff
RS> is not true. He does stop some bad stuff.
RS> My question was: If He stopped bad stuff
RS> before it ever began, how could you know?
KS> Robert, you have hoist yourself on your own petard here: You
KS> said "He does stop some bad stuff" which indicates you have some
KS> psychic knowledge of 'bad stuff' that MIGHT have happened, but in
KS> the same short paragraph you ask the very question that you would
KS> need to answer!
KS> Maybe it needs to be put a little simpler: What 'bad stuff' has
KS> 'he' stopped (per your claim) and even more interestingly, how do
KS> you know? Please think about how absurd your position here is!
I think you are assuming that I
know of "bad stuff" that was stopped
before it started. I made no such
claim. I only asked how someone
would know, had that happened.
I said that He has stopped some
"bad stuff".
Many stories in the Bible tell of God
stopping some "bad stuff" directly.
(Parting of the Red Sea, etc.)
I have donated food and used
clothes, purchased new clothes, school
supplies, etc. for less fortunates
because of my belief in Him. This is
God stopping some "bad stuff"
indirectly.
RS> You can't have good without bad. You
RS> can't choose good over evil, if there
RS> is no evil.
KS> Nobody ever has chosen evil over good. The
KS> concepts are 100% subjective.
Because they are subjective they
cannot be chosen?
I have chosen evil over good at
times. I'm not proud of it, but
I have done it.
KS> If a Capitalist makes a profit (something, by the
KS> way, objected to by the icon of your faith), it results in a
KS> loss by someone else. There is a 'good', from the seller's view
KS> and an 'evil' (loss) to the purchaser. It isn't a completely
KS> equitable transaction. You really ought to read about what Jesus
KS> had to say about it.
I disagree that a profit requires a
loss. And I'm not talking about a
spiritual profit, either.
If I work and plant a garden, I will
profit by that garden. No
corresponding loss will occur to
anyone else. If I sell some of the
vegetables from that garden to my
neighbors, I will profit by that and
so will they. It's win - win.
If I have something in my closet that
is just taking up room, and I sell it,
I make a profit. The person buying can
also cosider the transaction
profitable.
Loss can occur, due to evil, but it
is not, in and of itself, evil.
I really don't understand where the
idea that profit = bad comes from.
Without profit, we would die.
I know the idea of the rich man,
camel, and needle eye. And the story
of selling doves, etc. at the temple.
Are you talking about something else?
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * 3 stages of sex: Tri-weekly, Try weekly, Try weakly.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 12 Jan 01 18:27:00
EID:88bc 622c9360
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KS> when it comes from religio-nuts. All you wackoes like to spread
KS> that kind of shit around, but when someone is -about- to die, you
KS> fall all over yourselves praying for it NOT to happen.
RS> Some do. Many don't see that they are
RS> usually being selfish when they do this.
RS> I pray for the soul of the person to be
RS> accepted into heaven. I pray for the
RS> family to get through the tough situation
RS> with the least pain.
ML> So, you "pray", which is a supplication to your "God" to
ML> change the concert of "His" "perfect creation" (After all, "He"
ML> is supposed to be omnisicent, omnipotoent, omnietc., correct?)
ML> and yet you still entreat "Him" to change it to what you
ML> "believe" is better?
RS> I pray because I've been taught
ML> You pray because you've been brainwashed and incapable of
ML> critical thinking.
RS> that
RS> God can and will help those that ask
RS> for His help, and that I can ask for
RS> help on the behalf of others.
ML> Still you commit the sin of hubris asking your God to
ML> change His plans to suit YOU.
ML> And you find nothing, ever so tiny bit, disquieting about that?
It's what He's told us to do.
RS> All
RS> that He requires is that we choose
RS> Him.
ML> Why is it that an omnipotent, omniscient God NEEDS anything?
ML> Particularly from mere mortals?
I don't know that He does. Perhaps
"wants" would be more correct.
ML> So, evidently, by your own words and actions (inactions,
ML> really, prayer tends to be nothing more than a raising of
ML> hands upward (or a pious folding) coupled with that usual
ML> "who-cut-one" eye's-wide closed goofy expression), you are
ML> better than your "God" (the author of the entire cosmos),
ML> but yet you still are powerless to do anything but pray to
ML> ask "Him" to change "His" plan, just for you?
RS> You misunderstand. See above.
ML> I did, and you STILL have not explained why you're so damned
ML> special that God'll change His cosmic plans for your determined
ML> pleading.
I don't know why you and I are so
special.
ML> Or why you're so egomanical.
We are all special. Not an ego
issue.
ML> Hmph. Must go with the territory.
ML> A tautology, wrapped up in hubris, with a ribbon of
ML> selfishness.
ML> Luckily, many other folks prefer action to the sort of
ML> weird supplication (and ululation) you seem to prefer.
RS> What action do they take when someone
RS> is about to die, that believers do not?
ML> They provide real aid and comfort, not some illusory
ML> supplication to some supposed superfriend that it'll be
ML> all right, in the next life.
I work in a Catholic hospital. We do
much more than just pray. Besides,
what's wrong with saying "it'll be
all right, in the next life" if it
gives comfort?
ML> Prove me wrong. Give me a list of Christian Scientist EMS'.
What do Christian Scientists have to
do with this?
RS> Why do you insinuate prayer disallows
RS> any other actions? Prayer is in addition
RS> to those actions.
KS> The ultimate manifestation of such a mindset is when
KS> 'pious' folks won't take a sick kid to a doctor. GOD
KS> DAMN, that shit makes me really mad.
ML> Hey, it's God's will. There you go again, knowing better
ML> than the deity you worship.
RS> Now, you're talking something completely
RS> different, IMO. I could never do this. I
RS> can't see how this belief comes from
RS> Christianity. This seems (to me) to be
RS> following the wrong path, so to speak.
ML> All faith is a blind path in a dark forest leading nowhere.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Windows not found: heer arty ance?
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 08 Jan 01 21:34:00
EID:95ce 6228ac40
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RS> I understand this idea; but, wouldn't you expect more
RS> creatures that are between man and chimp, ape, monkey, or
RS> whatever? I mean, there are so many different types of man,
RS> yet not much of anything man-like yet also "monkey"-like.
RS> Wouldn't you expect a "bigfoot" or something?
SS> How many "types of man" are there? I am unaware of any but
SS> the one commonly known as the human race.
RS> I tried to say it in a way that
RS> someone would not make a smart
RS> remark about different races of
RS> man, rather than to answer the
RS> question.
KS> Sally didn't say anything about 'races of man',...
Sally didn't say anything at all
before the above quoted lines. Would
you have been happier had I typed:
so many different colors of man?
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * I'm a victim of PMS ....... My wife's!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 10 Jan 01 19:06:00
EID:86cd 622a98c0
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SA> That is true. However, those antibiotic-resistant bacteria
SA> that are now showing up all over the place show evolution exists.
RS> Only if you equate adaptation to evolution.
RS> We adapt to changing conditions without
RS> evolving into something different.
SA> The bacteria do not "adapt"...
SA> ... This is not adaptation, this is evolution.
All of the web sites that I went to say adapt.
A few also say mutate.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Have a nice day, somewhere else.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 10 Jan 01 19:16:00
EID:7144 622a9a00
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SA> That is true. However, those antibiotic-resistant bacteria
SA> that are now showing up all over the place show evolution exists.
RS> Only if you equate adaptation to evolution.
ML> Evolution operates on populations, not individuals. It also
ML> operates over the span of geological time, not the pitiful time
ML> scales of humanity.
So, evolved MDR bacteria would take
more than "the pitiful time scales
of humanity" to occur. Thanks, Marty.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * My wife and I were happy for 20 years. Then we met.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Still don't get "free
|Date: 10 Jan 01 19:31:00
EID:a023 622a9be0
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RS> Just a WAG, but, might God be bored if He just
RS> made everything do exactly as He wanted?
DM> Just an observation from logical consequences, but is it
DM> _possible_ for an omniscient and omnipotent being to make
DM> everything any _other_ way than exactly as it wanted?
No. But, why couldn't He make beings
that could make their own choices?
DM> This is a rhetorical question, one for which an answer
DM> is not required. If you don't "get it", please go read
DM> and learn rather than replying.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * As I said before, I NEVER repeat myself!
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: BLANCHE NONKEN
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 15:52:00
EID:c9a6 622d7e80
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BN> I save the chicken fat for pie crusts. No, really. None of
BN> that Crisco shit. Plain, unflavored rendered chicken fat
BN> makes the _best_ pie crusts.
SS> Is it really as good as lard?
BN> In my opinion, better. The crust is more tender, flakier, has
BN> a lovely golden color and a finer crumb. A little harder to
BN> handle, as chicken fat's fairly liquid at room temperature.
BN> So I chill the bowl, the flour, the fat and the other
BN> ingredients first.
I'll have to try it. I make at least one pie every single year.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: John Wilson
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 12 Jan 01 23:07:02
EID:0d16 622cb8e0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a5ffe96
-=> God Dan wrote to John Wilson <=-
-> On 10 Jan 01 19:57:04, John Wilson got back to God Dan
GD> Scientists correct there mistakes. Theologians have their view
GD> cut in stone.
GD> Try making the connection.
JW> Oh, please. Try a few Issues of New Testament abstracts. Or even
GD> Has it ever occured to you that I have?
Yes, but not from your statement above.
----------------
GD> Just becuase she's your girlfriend doesn't mean she's a goddess
GD> to anyone but you.
Absolutly, positivly, exactly correct!
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: MARK KIMES
|Sub: Dark Shadows
|Date: 13 Jan 01 16:42:00
EID:8c83 622d8540
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-=> Quoting Mark Kimes to Steve Kemp <=-
MK> I also suggest that we take further discussions on this topic to
MK> private mail as we've probably bored everyone else to tears with all
MK> this stuff. :-)
I'd rather be bored by this than the comedy team of Sayre and Wilson.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 16:43:00
EID:0495 622d8560
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-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Karl Schneider <=-
RS> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
RS> What I've been taught about evolution is
RS> that it is incomplete. I'm not overly
Of course it's incomplete, dimbulb. Evolution is an ONGOING
process. As long as there is ANY type of life at all, evolution
will continue.
Try thinking for once instead of just swallowing everything. Pick
up a book and look for yourself for a change.
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|From: Cindy Haglund
|To: ALL
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 11 Jan 01 16:59:00
EID:bb4f 622b8760
Favorite xtian adage?: "You'll find no atheists in foxholes."
Yup. While this adage is meant to be derogatory from the xtian pov I
believe it isn't.
Atheists don't believe in killing people.
Cindy
* SLMR 2.1a * Confucius say: Look for helping hand on end of own arm.
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|From: Cindy Haglund
|To: DAVE HAMILTON
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 11 Jan 01 17:01:00
EID:06c2 622b8820
DH> JW> I, like most people prefer to think that my view of reality is
sharp, DH> JW> precise, accurate; founded in experience and knowledge.
DH>Reality is a consensus of observations.
ROTFL
Gee.. I see smoke! Dale is on fire!
Cindy
* SLMR 2.1a * One person's theology is another's belly laugh.
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|From: Cindy Haglund
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Still don't get "fre
|Date: 11 Jan 01 17:14:00
EID:c133 622b89c0
JW>-=> John Wilson wrote to Mark Kimes What would be ironic if it were more imporant, is that this echo
JW>deals with profound subjects in such simplistic ways.
Yes John. Religion is simple. Non-religion is profound.
Many people here in HS try to show you hwy Relgion sucks, in a
simplistic way. WHY? Because religion is so simplistic and believers
need simplistic explantions. Yet I don't see much getting through.
JW>...so it is with both biblical tudies and theology.
LOL. And Grimm Fairy Tales as well?
JW>Some people believe for a time in the bible being inerrent, unchangable
JW>and God-written because of the bewilderingness of the alternative.
JW>(And for other reasons, of course.
JW>(To such: C'mon in: the waters fine!) :-)
The Bible is a book JOhn. Understand? It was written by men.
"Inspired by God" you say? Well hate to bust your ark honey but
um inspiration is a construct of the human mind; and so isn't "GOD".
JW>concerning every aspect of New Testament study you (or they) could think
of.
JW>High praise for some monographs/books/articles; some severly chastised.
One thing Religion does do, is keep the economy going, like cigarettes,
Barbie dolls and booze.
JW>My point is that saying that I'm keeping up is the same as hearing others
JW>say that *they* are keeping up with Science.
Keeping up with ignorance seems to be your forte' John.
JW>Most posts here seem to be childish squabbles about those who
Actually people just get frustrated saying the same thing over and over
and over again. That's just 'human nature' for you.
JW>take a holy book as containing somethings with which ordinary science
does
What is "HOLY" John? As in water? Some fat assed priest or whatever
waves his meaty little hand ovver some water and says it's holy!? OH
come on.... bullpoop.
State the physical properties of 'holy' John. Did you run a test on this
so called 'holy water' and find out something 'there' extra?
JW>not deal, and those who take the view that that book should be thrown
away;
JW>but no substitute for what to some is a way of life. And without the
JW>courtesy/modesty to be agnostic! :-)
Blahblahblahbah blather John.
JW>To think that one has plumbed the depths of a profound book and have
Profound? Yes most fantasies are quite profound, yet shallow in reality.
JW>just grounds for declaring it worthless, is a sign of an even bigger
ego
JW>that I have been declared (with a *leetle* bit of justification :-)
JW>to have.
JW>Amid whatever rubble that needs discarding are bits of that non-science
JW>called wisdom. Contained elsewhere certainly, but one of the
JW>first of a gazillion books on the market today: how to lead a truly happy
JW>life. (Modern books are, of course an improvmeent, they offer a 20lb.
JW>weight loss in less than a month! :-)
Sure thing John just like how it is the bibble promises some sort of
edenic afterlife to those who are 'saved'...
JW>In this era of info-glut where everyone is behind in *something*
JW>I fear even this echo is behind in something
I think John, you are behind in reality.
JW>of greater importantance to me as time goes by
JW>And the word is "manners"
Or money? I mean that's what religion is for ... mostly.
JW>The insulting smugness that counters ignorance benefits ---whom?---
The person who is tired of asking you the same thing over and over
again. It's a vent John.
Cindy
JW> JW> ... Alexander the Grape--he concord the world.
JW> JW> ___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
JW> JW> --- Maximus 3.01
JW> JW> * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, B.C., Canada (1:153/7715)
JW>___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
JW>--- Maximus 3.01
JW> * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, B.C., Canada (1:153/7715)
* SLMR 2.1a * When a problem goes away, the people working on it do not
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|Sub: Thanks again
|Date: 12 Jan 01 19:38:50
EID:8872 622c9cc0
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 1:170/501 43936aae
On (12 Jan 01) WAYNE CHIRNSIDE wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA...
WC> Update on the dogs teeth.
WC> Spankys teeth are now remarkably clean, I'm
WC> forever in your debt.
WC> Those turkey necks really did the trick and
WC> I'm somewhat astounded at how really clean his teeth are.
WC> Maybe science ought to look at putting this enzyme
WC> into people toothpaste.
I suspect the enzymes are secondary to the abrasive action, but,
hell... whatever works! '>
... You promised a drug-free America. I want my free drugs.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 15:03:00
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-=> ROBERT SAYRE wrote to JUDITH BANDSMA <=-
JB> But something spurious I will check out on my own or wait for
JB> the word from people I do have confidence in.
RS> You are correct. "Confidence" is a
RS> better choice of words.
JB> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
JB> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
JB> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose confidence.
JB> They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if they're lucky.
RS> You mean, like cold fusion?
And those scientists are cleaning up mouse shit in the lab, at best.
Your fairy tale has had no supporting evidence for a couple
thousand years, cold fusion weas debunked in a couple of months.
Apply the same standards to the bible as to cold fusion and
the bible loses big time.
... Fundies are like mushrooms, they like to be fed shit in the dark.
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 12:37:00
EID:3734 622d64a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 7623b990
TZUTC: -0500
RS>.TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0516M
RS>.MSGID: 1:205/40 93e1d4e4
RS>.TZUTC: -0800
RS>RS> Are you telling me that you do not
RS>RS> have to have faith in the persons
RS>RS> and methods that were used to develop
RS>RS> the data which you take as evidence?
RS>JB> Nope. Because along with their data, they have to describe how
RS>JB> they arrived at it. If their data is correct I can replicate it
RS>JB> for myself, I don't even have to directly believe them.
RS>RS> But, I'll bet you don't. You just
RS>RS> take it on faith that you could.
RS>KS> And do you apply the same standard to your skepticism of
RS>KS> evolution?
RS> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
RS>What I've been taught about evolution is
RS>that it is incomplete.
No Robert, it is NOT incomplete.
Our full knowledge of it is what's incomplete.
RS>I'm not overly
RS>concerned with whether it is true or not,
RS>so I don't pursue it.
Then why not actually study it, rather than getting propaganda from the
ICR and "answersingenesis?"
---
þ CMPQwk #1.42þ UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: HECTORP@SOFTDISK.COM
|Sub: Re: Silly fundy
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:35:00
EID:29cf 622d9c60
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 541b14bc
TZUTC: -0500
TO: HECTORP@SOFTDISK.COM
MK>> Art Bell has left his radio show, and some other
MK>> idiot like him has taken his place. (Forgot the
MK>> shithead's name.)
MK>Yeah, I know, but if I'd said his name instead of Art's (and I don't
MK>remember it off the top of my head, either), you wouldn't have known
MK>what I was talking about, would you? :-)
True.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 13 Jan 01 01:50:16
EID:9764 622d0e40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a5fb458
-> On 11 Jan 01 14:14:12, John Wilson got back to God Dan
JW> And you have yet to realize that that is *exactly* what I object to.
GD> You have yet to realize that no one gives a shit.
JW> I *am* begining, to their loss, to realize just that.
So, John, pull the handle on the device that is named after
you and flush yourself before we need to call in the septic
service.
... The confusion is all yours, John Wilson.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Michael Gothreau
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 21:24:09
EID:7ce8 622dab00
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a60c779
-> On 10 Jan 01 18:00:47, Michael Gothreau got back to God Dan
-> Re: Evidence?
RS> * SLMR 2.1a * Philosophers are tourists. Scientists are
RS> explorers.
JW> ...and true theists are residents. :-)
GD> See tagline. You fit in far too well.
GD> ... Did you ever notice how fundies like to argue with taglines?
MG> He should have written "...and true theists are sheep."
MG> Nobody could have argued with that...
Yeah, but someome might steal that...
... "...and true theists are sheep." -- Michael Gothreau
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|From: God Dan
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 21:51:24
EID:fc2b 622dae60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a60cddc
-> On 11 Jan 01 23:26:00, MARTY LEIPZIG got back to GOD DAN
GD> Back in the 1960's, the resultant was Au + H2O
WC> Uh, little confused here, isn't Pb lead, S2 sulfer and Au
WC> gold. A little more alchamy going on here than allowed for in
WC> science. Ain't it lead sulphide or some such.
GD> "Gold" "Water", a former presidential candidate.
ML> FeS2.
GD> There's no '2' in ferrous sulfide.
ML> Nor is there a "fool", yet...
GD> Au, you shouldn't go that way..
ML> That's just none of your Bi.
Aren't you be rather un-(x)Hg2 to me?
GD> Don't you hate a smart-ass?
ML> Harumph.
GD> As I now know, I am pyrite at times.
ML> Well, don't be realgar (AsS).
Don't be so AsHg2.
... Been there, done that, did the microsedimentology. [Marty Leipzig]
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Re: Teric.
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:44:25
EID:f30e 622d5580
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 154a3f92
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
REPLYADDR HOLYSMOKE-LIST@salata.com
GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Marty Leipzig
(posted TO: Marty Leipzig)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Marty Leipzig
JW>> ...what are the benefits, other than discarding
JW>> a lot of theological and cultural lingusitic
JW>> baggage? A clearer picture of your life's
JW>> meaning or purpose or worth?
> It's a helluva lot more than simply linguistics.
> It's an unfettering of one's mind from questions
> which, by their very construction, cannot be
> answered. Why chase illusory waterfowl when
> there's an entire cosmos out there to investigate?
At the very least it frees you from old, unsatisfactory answers to loaded
questions, and allows you to look at the questions that were intentionally
not asked prior to those loaded questions. What causes many of the
questions to be discarded is the ability to look at them honestly and
realize that they're invalid in the first place -- but you may find a valid
question underneath it.
JW>> If value is not of scientific interest
One might well view scientific method as a means of ferreting out value
from
fields of dross. What John-boy actually means is that scientific value
is
not of interest to him, perhaps.
JW>> and atheism introduces a bleakness
JW>> regarding death...
> If you require some supernatural being to personally
> make your life worthwhile, then there is nothing I
> can say to alter that situation.
Ah, but he's giving away his real problem there -- he's looking at
"bleakness regarding death" rather than "worthwhile value in life."
ML>>>>> Oh, yeah? With which revision of the Bible,
ML>>>>> Qu'ran, Torah, etc?
JW>>>> They are *all* being revised, every day....
ML>>> Sorry, but quite a few billion of very
ML>>> religious, very fundamentalist and very
ML>>> deluded people disagree with you.
JW>> Oh they may now, but few are up to the world.
JW>> Change comes faster and faster...
> Only religion is still stuck in the stasis of
> immutability.
John-boy's just telling you that his religion is better than theirs. "There
are new religions and religious ideas; I have embraced one, they haven't.
T
hey're wrong and I'm right. Nyah, nyah."
You're right -- same old song, same lack of reason and evidence to back
it
up.
Hec
http://www.hectorplasmic.com
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: All
|Sub: Ed News
|Date: 13 Jan 01 13:40:34
EID:8a2a 622d6d00
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 2be61d2b
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
REPLYADDR holysmoke@salata.com
GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Blanche Nonken
FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
Snipped from an email from Ed. Forwarded so you guys know he's still
alive.
>And I hope you're feeling better. Coughing up a lung >is supposed to be
a metaphor, man!
Evidently not the case with me. The shit's still
happening, after what... six weeks now! Jesus Fucking
Christ, this is getting old.
Went to the doc finally, yesterday - he gave me a
scrip for cephalexin, supposedly a good wide-
spectrum antibiotic, but thus far, it's had very little
effect. Today is another typical one for the last
month - go to work, fitful sleep. Nothing else. The catbox is starting
to look really terrible.
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|From: TIM RICHARDSON50
|To: CINDY HAGLUND
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:30:00
EID:2aa1 622d9bc0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 e27e6864
TZUTC: -0500
Cindy,
CH>Favorite xtian adage?: "You'll find no atheists in foxholes."
CH>
CH>Yup. While this adage is meant to be derogatory from the xtian pov I
CH>believe it isn't.
CH>
CH>Atheists don't believe in killing people.
Adolf Hitler Josef Stalin
Martin Bormann Lavrenti Beria
Hermann Goering Yuri Andropov
Josef Goebbels Mao tse Tung
Hans Frank Ho Chi Minh
Heinrich Himmler Benito Mussolini
Rudolf Hoess
Adolf Eichmann
Josef Mengele
Rheinhardt Heydrich
SS general Heigelein
Julius Streicher
Erich Koch
Ilsa Koch
Kaltenbrunner
Tim Richardson
___
* UniQWK v4.2 * The Windows Mail Reader
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 15:29:00
EID:1413 622d7ba0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a60e4bc
-=> Jake Campbell wrote to Cindy Haglund <=-
JC> Jan 11 12:19 01, Cindy Haglund wrote to GOD DAN:
CH> I believe Religion is wrong. It's ...unnatural....
JC> Then why is there so much of it? How is it any more wrong than
JC> masturbation?
A great (if just *slightly* weird) question!
___---------
What `natural' is has been pondered by people a lot smarter'n me for
as long as rational man has been around, I suppose...
Cheers!
___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 15:38:02
EID:7b53 622d7cc0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a60e6da
-=> JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
-=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
JW> Jeremiah. P. Ostriker (In 2000 he won the U.S. National medal of
JW> Science) And Paul j. Steinhardt, both of Princeton.
JB> In what discipline? I'm really tired of the so-called
JB> 'credentials' of creationists.
Don't think you'd find 'em in Scientific American...but...I'll look:
Jeremiah Ostriker and Paul J. Steinhardt are both professors at Prinction
...their prediction of accelerated expansion in 1995 anticipated the
groundbreaking supernova results by several years. Ostriker was one of
the first to appreciate the prevelence of dark matter and the importance
of hot intergalactic gas...Steinhardt was one of the originators of the
theory of inflation and the concept of quasicrystals...
That from the "The Authors" squib from the magazine.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Mark Kimes Mark Kimes wrote to Steve Kemp <=-
MK<> ...I also suggest that we take further
MK<> discussions on this topic to private mail as we've probably bored
MK<> everyone else to tears with all this stuff. :-)
Not everyone. This is the first post you've made that I found *really*
interesting!
(This topic is being discussed in SCIENCE and is the prime
subject of the current Scientific American.)
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Mark Kimes I *knoe* you are more ingelligent than you
> have been acting
MK<> Unfortunately, John-boy, you aren't.
Both of us can change our minds.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Dave Hamilton
|Sub: Obviously a great deal..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 17:15:08
EID:962b 622d89e0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a60fd9c
-=> Dave Hamilton wrote to John Wilson <=-
DH> ...Psychology doesn't define the
DH> self as an entity that could be considered together or apart
DH> from its environment.
Heavy-duty material.
It's that "or" that gives me pause. If I can get some synapses
to begin firing, I'll reply.
When you say "psychology" do you mean some, many, most or all,
psychologists define the self suchly?
Gurdjieff (*Eastern* psychology?) defines the self in a
*very* interesting way. (Actually, he's not much into `defining'.
He said "I have some good leather for those who wish to make
shoes." IOW, practical applications for his system. (He disliked
the word system, though everything he taught comes 'round to everything
else he taught...
And I'm just (still) a freshman student at this...
... God is real, unless declared "integer".
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Re: Scientific Method
|Date: 13 Jan 01 17:23:10
EID:ffbc 622d8ae0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a60ff7e
-=> Jake Campbell wrote to John Wilson <=-
JC> ... I am just a shade more theist than agnostic, which
JC> could get me called a Fundy 'round here.
...and worse! :-)
JC> Well, in for a penny...
...in for a pounding. :-)
Cheers!
... If you explain so that nobody misunderstands, some will.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Mark Kimes Mark Kimes wrote to All <=-
MK<> A fundy said:
First three words and a lie is born!
> And the Absolute is more complex than you can imagine.
MK<> But before that the fundy said:
> A belief in `The Absolute' about which nothing
> can be known...
MK<> So the fundy's claim to know that "The Absolute" is complex is
MK<> meaningless by his own "logic."
I guess you could say that I do not think the "Absolute" is simple.
Hence complex. An assumption, of course as is true of anything about which
nothing can be known to human intelligence.
Reprise:
> The point was that it was as impossible to provide
> evidence for the existance of God as It is to
> provide evidence for the existance of love.
MK<> That was the fundy's claim. However, it was pointed out to the
MK<> fundy, complete with references, that we know many of the
MK<> chemicals which cause the emotional responses we call "love."
MK<> The fundy did not argue with this fact. The fundy's reply?
> Which is not evidence.
MK<> You've just gotta love the entertainment of a blindered,
MK<> logically devoid fundy of whatever stripe.
You don't need more brain power than Forest Gump to "know
..what love is..."
And it ain't chemicals. If you really think that chemicals are what love
is, that knowing `many' of the chemicals involved explains
love, I really feel sorry for you.
Hope you learn better.
... It is only an attitude away.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 12 Jan 01 18:37:00
EID:9884 622c94a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0516M
MSGID: 1:205/40 f14c359d
TZUTC: -0800
MG>> Why do some christians hate homosexuals?
RS> You'd have to ask THEM.
MG> But, I'm asking YOU.
But, I don't know. How could I?
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * I tried to get a life, but they were out of stock.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 12 Jan 01 18:47:00
EID:b7cb 622c95e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0516M
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SM>> You see, it's you (and your fellow believers) who are trying to
SM>> convince us that your God exists.
RS> 4) I haven't figured out WHY I was
RS> invited, yet. (I hope that it was
RS> more than just to be ridiculed.)
KS> I -think- it was I who invited you...although I've slept since then...
KS> but operating under that assumption, and if I recall correctly, it
KS> was because I thought you were a bright fellow who might actually
KS> come up with something 'new and improved', as it were, regarding
KS> evidence for one or more deities! Regardless of the often undiplomatic
KS> dialogue here, many of us would welcome it. Really. ;>
Thanks, Karl. I wasn't sure if it
was you, or Wayne.
Thanks for the compliment. Obviously,
I've nothing "new nor improved" to
add. Just ask most anyone here. ;^)
Anyway, I'm gonna have to cut back,
as I just don't have enough time to
spend at this.
TTYL and thanks again.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Bury a lawyer 12' under; because, deep down they're nice.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 12 Jan 01 19:02:00
EID:602d 622c9840
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0516M
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RS> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RLS> I believe that homosexuality is
RLS> wrong. I believe that it is a sin
RLS> against God, and unnatural. I do
RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and
RS> sinning against God?"
I don't know of any animals having
homosexual sex; but, to sin requires
the knowledge that it IS a sin, and
a CHOICE to commit that sin. Animals
are incapable of sin.
RS> And what evidence do you have that homosexuality is
RS> a "sin?" Specifically.
Here we go again, with the evidence
requests...
RLS> If it doesn't affect these, then,
RLS> as Benny Hill says: "I think that
RLS> Lebanese and homosapiens should be
RLS> left to their own devices, really
RLS> I do".
RS> Hill was a comedian, and he was making a joke.
And, I thought it funny enough to
repeat it. (Many times.)
TTYL, Ross.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * DejaMoo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:01:00
EID:2e06 622d9820
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0516M
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RS> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RS> I believe that homosexuality is
RS> wrong.
ML> Why?
As I said, it is a sin against God.
That, in and of itself is enough.
I think that the primary reason for
sex is for procreation. I don't see
procreation in homosexual sex.
RS> I believe that it is a sin
RS> against God,
ML> Why? Could you, if you disposed of your Biblical prejudices,
ML> accept that homosexual is what some folks are?
I don't need to dispose of
anything to accept that some are
homosexual.
RS> and unnatural.
ML> It's as natural as fucking can be. It is displayed in many,
ML> many different orders of animals: cetaceans, aves, primates
ML> (the non-human variety), canines, rodents, felids,
ML> crocodilians, boids, etc., etc.
ML> And it's not just when these animals are put in stressful or
ML> "unnatural" situations. It's something that happens, quite
ML> naturally.
This is news to me. I've never
seen dogs, horses, nor any other
animals in a homosexual encounter,
though I have seen them in
heterosexual encounters.
RS> I do not like to see it, as it
RS> makes me very uncomfortable.
ML> What? Just because your heart does the Cha-Cha every time you
ML> see a couple of women or men holding hands, that's a reason to
ML> ridicule, loathe and despise that group?
My heart doesn't "do the Cha-Cha".
What makes you think that I
ridicule or despise "that group"?
I haven't said anything, until I
was asked. If anything, I feel
sorry for them.
ML> Or, are you just fearful that you see more of
ML> yourself in them than you care to admit?
Not that I equate these; but, I
don't feel comfortable around
drug users, theives, adulterers,
murderers, etc.
RS> I believe that, as with any sin,
ML> Ah, Pffft! 'Sin'. The only sin is ignorance.
ML> Sinner.
You can believe what you want.
RS> it is up to the individual(s) to
RS> correct the behavior,
ML> It may be genetically encoded. Go ahead, "correct" your
ML> eye color.
Eye color is not an act, and
does not involve choice. Sex is
a choice. Celibacy is a choice.
Stealing is a choice. Etc.
RS> or else accept the
RS> consequences in the afterlife.
ML> Piss on the afterlife. You may want to waste your real life on
ML> an illusory afterlife, but please don't burden thinking people
ML> with your fanciful, and inane, precepts.
Then, don't ask.
RS> It is not for me to interfere,
ML> But it's OK to be judgemental, condescending and arrogant?
ML> Nice set of values you got there, bucko.
If that's how you see it.
RS> until and unless it affects
RS> someone whom I'm responsible for.
ML> But still you sit there all smug and smarmy, glowering down
ML> from your supposed moral high-horse on all those dirty queers.
Everyone has faults. Mine are no
better or worse than anyone elses.
I think that a look over the posts
in here will show who is "glowering
down".
ML> People like you make me rejoice that I'm an atheist.
RS> If it doesn't affect these, then,
RS> as Benny Hill says: "I think that
RS> Lebanese and homosapiens should be
RS> left to their own devices, really
RS> I do".
ML> Your attempt (and failure) at humor does nothing to mask the
ML> repugnance of your post.
This was a retelling, not my own
creation.
ML> Let me ask you, what's your beliefs on atheism and atheists?
I think that they're mistaken.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Sexy women are nature's way of saying "keep it up"!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 12 Jan 01 19:55:00
EID:6935 622c9ee0
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>> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RS> I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I believe that it is a sin
RS> against God, and unnatural. I do not like to see it, as it makes me
RS> very uncomfortable.
RS> I believe that, as with any sin, it is up to the individual(s)
RS> to correct the behavior, or else accept the consequences in the
RS> afterlife. It is not for me to interfere, until and unless it
RS> affects someone whom I'm responsible for.
SA> So, what would happen if your daughter or son would bring a
SA> same-sex partner home to meet you? It could happen if you have
SA> children.
My son brought home a girl of another
race. We were not comfortable with the
situation, and we told him why. We told
him that we would support him, regardless
of his choices.
I would hope that we would do the same
if he brought home a boy, though I really
don't know, and I hope that we never have
to face such a situation.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * I can walk on water; but, I stagger on alcohol.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Biblical contradictio
|Date: 12 Jan 01 19:59:00
EID:db74 622c9f60
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CJ> Do you really want to teach junior high kids that the universe
CJ> came into being because Ptah jacked off?
RS> I don't think that it should be done
RS> in those words.
GD> Why not?
I think that the idea could be
conveyed in a more tactful way.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * I'm not Superman; but, I am very dense.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Linda Pagels
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 12 Jan 01 20:02:00
EID:bf3a 622ca040
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JB> And yet, there is MORE evidence for the Easter Bunny than
JB> there is for your god ...
RS> Justify this position.
DM> EGGS, Dimbulb.
RS> I guess I'm pretty dense. I don't understand
RS> your answer. Are you saying that you have
RS> evidence of eggs that came from "the Easter
RS> Bunny"?
LP> Just where do you think that all of the colored eggs come from,
LP> Robert? Or, is there a more rational explanation for the
LP> phenomenon?
It is known.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * learn from your parents mistakes....use birth control!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 12 Jan 01 20:08:00
EID:22a9 622ca100
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JB> And yet, there is MORE evidence for the Easter Bunny than
JB> there is for your god ...
RS> Justify this position.
DM> EGGS, Dimbulb.
RS> I guess I'm pretty dense. I don't understand
RS> your answer. Are you saying that you have
RS> evidence of eggs that came from "the Easter
RS> Bunny"?
KS> Every spring, billions of colored eggs are discovered by children
KS> and others with that mindset. Popular culture says they are brought
KS> by the Easter Bunny.
KS> So, to place you on the receiving end of a similar challenge you
KS> have issued to us 'nonbelievers', can you 'prove' that they were
KS> NOT put in place by that famous and ubiquitous rodent?
Only the ones that I've had at
my house. :^)
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Nottyeterosexual: see virgin (q.v.)
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 12 Jan 01 21:26:00
EID:22a9 622cab40
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RS> I believe that I have "seen", and that I
RS> am not wishing. In fact, if there were no
RS> God, I suspect that some decisions would
RS> be easier for me.
KS> A thought experiment: Replace 'God' with 'conscience', (or, if you
KS> prefer, "an understanding that doing something bad to another person
KS> is uncool and might compromise my own safety") and consider that as
KS> a basis for your decisions.
I don't know that I can separate
conscience out; but, God is more
than just conscience.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * I started with nothing, and I still have most of it left!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 12 Jan 01 22:15:00
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RS> I like to collect drawings of anthropomorphic animals, those
RS> that have a sort of "cheesecake" appeal, like swimsuit models.
RS> If anyone would like an example, think of one of the characters
RS> from the movie, "Michael Jordan's Space Jam." The one I like is
RS> "Lola Bunny."
RS> Now, there are literally THOUSANDS of drawings of these, and
RS> people have been drawing them since even before the Bible was
RS> written.
RS> I even have photographs of them! Yes! I do!
RS> Now, are these simply a harmless fantasy, or are they real?
RLS> If you HAVE them, they must be real
RLS> photos and drawings.
RS> But is the subject of the photos and drawings real?
RS> Why or why not?
No, because we know that they were
humanly created (and usually by whom).
RS> Because I have never seen a photograph of "God," or "Jesus."
RS> Yet I have numerous drawings of these kinds of animals, AND
RS> photos!
RS> So which is more real, the deities I mention, or the animals I
RS> mentioned?
RLS> Real is not a matter of degree.
RS> Nope.
RS> Reality is not defined "by degrees."
RS> It is defined by what can be seen, heard and measured.
I'd say "sensed".
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Hole drilled in ladies room wall. Police looking into it.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 12 Jan 01 22:48:00
EID:1675 622cb600
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RS> "In His image" does not equal "exact replica".
RS> As for the differences and the similarities, I
RS> don't know. God can do anything. I cannot do as
RS> much. I do not yet know everything that I can
RS> do, nor what I cannot.
MG> Then how do you know that it does not mean "exact relica".
Because, if that were the case, it
would have been stated; and, we'd have
the ability to perform miracles,
amongst other things.
MG> How much similar and difference is there? You already admt
MG> that you do not know. this leave open the window of"
MG> Simlarity=100%
MG> Difference=0%
RS> When I say that my brother was dead,
RS> and came back to life during Last Rites,
RS> it is met with the response that he must
RS> not have truely been dead.
MG> Occam's Razor. the simplest explanation is usually the right
MG> one. Dead people do not come back to life. If this happened,
MG> then he wasn't really dead.
IOW, a miracle can't happen because
miracles can't happen.
MG> You have believed what you wanted to believe with the added
MG> fact that you believe the more difficult story to swallow.
MG> Oh it's of great value. when you recieve it, please reply
MG> here in the echo your thoughts on the thing.
It is a very sad image.
My first thought was how people
can allow this. My second thought
was: What did the cameraman do for
this little one? Anything?
I ask how people can allow this,
because governments will not allow
food and supplies to be given to
people like these. The food gets to
the country, but the local
governments won't allow some or all
of it to get to the needy. This is
due to actions of people, not God.
TTYL and thanks for the image. It
is very touching.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Your girlfriend says to say hi.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Still don't get "free
|Date: 13 Jan 01 09:29:00
EID:fa1a 622d4ba0
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RS> Just a WAG, but, might God be bored if He just made everything do
RS> exactly as He wanted?
SA> Then he wouldn't be omnibenevolent.
The benevolence is in respect to the afterlife.
RS> Wouldn't it be more likely that He would want some
RS> unpredictability, if for nothing else but amusement?
SA> That would mean he isn't omniscient.
He would simply be blocking that aspect of His
ability, to whatever extent He wanted, for
whatever time period He wanted, concerning
whatever He wanted.
RS> Or, perhaps He NEEDS worship and/or followers for some reason?
SA> That would land him in the asshole category, which many followers
SA> deny. Let's put that one as "wouldn't be omnibenevolent".
I don't see why a need "lands Him in the asshole
category", nor, in the "wouldn't be omnibenevolent"
category.
RS> Why could He not, as God, create us to have the ability of choice?
SA> If he is omnipotent, he could.
RS> Why couldn't He deliberately "blind" himself to the outcomes?
SA> That would mean he is no longer omniscient, and definitely not
SA> omnibenevolent.
See above for omniscient. I don't get the connection
to benevolent.
RS> Or, perhaps "in His image" means that He has given us a little part
RS> of Himself that could grow or die, dependent upon how we chose?
SA> Omnibenevolence again is at risk... what choice does a 3 year old
SA> girl have when she is raped? A 6 year old boy when he is tortured
SA> and killed? It is one thing to allow choice to grow or die, but
SA> there is no protection of the innocents out there.
That's because, this life is not the reason
for our being; it is only a test. I don't
understand why "innocents" must endure that
which they do. I don't know why we must be
tested.
SA> You really can't come up with a way for God to be omniscient,
SA> omnipotent and omnibenevolent and still have society be the way
SA> it currently is. Either your definition of God needs to change
SA> or there isn't a God out there.
The benevolence is for the soul. Society is the
result of many choices by many people. Not really
directly related, only indirectly.
TTYL, Sue.
Thanks for a great post.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Sorry for the crayon.They won't let me have sharp objects
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Richard Plinston
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 09:56:00
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SS> It seems to me that the basic problem you are having in here is
SS> based on the fact that you use the words "know" and "believe" as
SS> though they were synonymous. They aren't. Knowledge and belief are
SS> very different animals and until you get that difference clearly
SS> in mind you are at a great disadvantage in discussing ideas.
RS> If you truely believe something,
RS> you know it to be true. If you
RP> In this case your 'know' and 'true' are purely the result
RP> of your 'believe' and are not related to the 'know' and
RP> 'true' of reality.
RP> ie you are incapable of putting your mind into a state in
RP> which you could possibly understand that there is a difference
RP> between your 'believe' and reality.
True.
RP> Thus you are at a serious disadvantage in _understanding_
RP> anything at all.
RP> But you can't possibly understand this.
I think that I'm quite capable of understanding
this.
RS> If you know something to be true, you
RS> believe it. Though they mean slightly
RS> different things, they go together.
RP> They only 'go together' in certain individuals who are
RP> incapable of separating them. As you cannot separate them
RP> you cannot understand that there is a clear difference or
RP> that others can see this difference and can hold their
RP> 'beliefs' as a separate entity from their 'knowledge'.
The difference seems to me, to be one of
degree.
RP> Those that also tie their 'know' and 'true' into their
RP> 'beliefs' also seem to lack the mental processes by
RP> which they can evaluate information outside of their
RP> belief system.
RP> You, of course, won't understand this. Just as a blind
RP> person won't understand how someone can paint with colours.
I do understand you, and I agree with
you that it is difficult, though not
impossible.
RP> You probably will think that it is _me_ that is blind to
RP> what you '_know_' to be '_true_', even though this is just
RP> your belief.
RP> ... Knowledge is a belief because of the evidence.
I agree.
RP> Faith is a belief in spite of he evidence.
I disagree that it is "in spite of the evidence".
Faith is belief without direct evidence.
RP> Your 'know' and 'true' are 'faith'.
True.
TTYL and thanks for a great post, Richard.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * 7 days without prayer makes one weak!
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Linda Pagels
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 09:57:00
EID:e014 622d4f20
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RS> I even have photographs of them! Yes! I do!
RS> Now, are these simply a harmless fantasy, or are they real?
RS> If you HAVE them, they must be real
RS> photos and drawings.
LP> Now, are Stephen King's books real because they are not
LP> just in print but made into movies?
Of course. You can hold one in your hand.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * TSR: Trash System Randomly.
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Richard Plinston
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:06:00
EID:ddaa 622d50c0
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RP> The whole point of evolving is that successive generations become
RP> different for a 'reason' - or for many thousands of reasons.
RP> If one line develops an adaptation that makes them better able
RP> to survive and grow than other adaptations then they will
RP> dominate at the expense of those less adapted to the new
RP> conditions.
This is the part that is confusing to me.
Why would it be "at the expense of those
less adapted"? Seems that man in different
climates would develop differently due to
the differing diets, climates, predators,
etc.
Man in the tropics should have developed
differently from man in the arctic circle
without being "at the expense of those
less adapted".
Thanks for an informative post.
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * Horn broke .... watch for finger.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: KARL SCHNEIDER
|Sub: Thanks again
|Date: 13 Jan 01 22:25:00
EID:b0ca 622db320
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-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Wayne Chirnside <=-
WC> Maybe science ought to look at putting this enzyme
WC> into people toothpaste.
KS> I suspect the enzymes are secondary to the abrasive action, but,
KS> hell... whatever works! '>
It's not an enzyme that is in the necks themselves, it's an enzyme
released when the dog eats any type of raw meat. The combination of
the enzyme and the abrasion are what works so well.
If it was abrasion alone, carrots, milk bones and chew toys would work
better than they do. Hell, if it was abrasion alone, brushing their teeth
would work better than it does.
Dog toothpaste comes in liver, beef and chicken flavor.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 22:26:00
EID:3760 622db340
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-=> Quoting Wayne Chirnside to Robert Sayre <=-
WC> thousand years, cold fusion weas debunked in a couple of months.
And, as I told him (which is where he got it), cold fusion was
falsified very quickly because nobody could replicate the results.
When nobody else can come to the same findings, you ain't got diddly.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: CINDY HAGLUND
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 13 Jan 01 22:27:00
EID:200b 622db360
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-=> Quoting Cindy Haglund to All <=-
CH> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
You are, as usual, wrong again. Atheists just don't use the 'god
told me to do it' defense. And they don't kill in the name of some
god.
Get a grip, Jimbo.
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 16:09:00
EID:75f6 622d8120
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a60c3ec
Judith Bandsma said "Anybody notice this?" to John Wilson, adding:
JW> Jeremiah. P. Ostriker (In 2000 he won the U.S. National medal of
JW> Science) And Paul j. Steinhardt, both of Princeton.
JB> In what discipline? I'm really tired of the so-called
JB> 'credentials' of creationists. Their list of
JB> 'scientists' looks impressive, too. Until you start to
JB> notice that there's not one BIOLOGIST in the bunch.
JB> (Several economists and engineers, though)
JB> So these people could be scientists and still not know
JB> what they're talking about. I'm not likely to have any
JB> confidence in an inorganic chemist talking about
JB> cosmology. And if you do, then maybe you need to see a
JB> proctologist the next time your teeth need cleaned.
One with a really _long_ proctoscope.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Re: Religion?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 11:27:00
EID:fa82 622e5b60
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-=> ROBERT SAYRE wrote to RICHARD PLINSTON <=-
RP> The whole point of evolving is that successive generations become
RP> different for a 'reason' - or for many thousands of reasons.
RP> If one line develops an adaptation that makes them better able
RP> to survive and grow than other adaptations then they will
RP> dominate at the expense of those less adapted to the new
RP> conditions.
RS> This is the part that is confusing to me.
RS> Why would it be "at the expense of those
RS> less adapted"? Seems that man in different
RS> climates would develop differently due to
RS> the differing diets, climates, predators,
RS> etc.
Almost completely wrong. Man's advantage is his lack of
specialization and a large brain that allows him to adapt his
environment to his need, never the less man IS evolving.
The first man was likely found in Africa and had more melanin
in his skin, black, as that trait confered some protection
from U.V. light waves.
RS> Man in the tropics should have developed
RS> differently from man in the arctic circle
RS> without being "at the expense of those
RS> less adapted".
Lots of black people from the arctic circle are there.
... God: A fairy tale told by humans who fear their own death.
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 11:30:00
EID:a892 622e5bc0
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-=> ROBERT SAYRE wrote to MARTY LEIPZIG <=-
RS> and unnatural.
ML> It's as natural as fucking can be. It is displayed in many,
ML> many different orders of animals: cetaceans, aves, primates
ML> (the non-human variety), canines, rodents, felids,
ML> crocodilians, boids, etc., etc.
ML> And it's not just when these animals are put in stressful or
ML> "unnatural" situations. It's something that happens, quite
ML> naturally.
RS> This is news to me. I've never
RS> seen dogs, horses, nor any other
RS> animals in a homosexual encounter,
Try watching PBS occasionally, you know, documentaries on
animal behavior and such.
Homosexuality is news to you because you haven't seen it
but god is real to you, I suppose this means you've actually seen god.
Next time you see god, ask him or her how it's hanging.
RS> Not that I equate these; but, I
RS> don't feel comfortable around
RS> drug users, theives, adulterers,
RS> murderers, etc.
RS> I believe that, as with any sin,
ML> Ah, Pffft! 'Sin'. The only sin is ignorance.
ML> Sinner.
RS> You can believe what you want.
Merty doesn't do belief, he does *evidence*
RS> it is up to the individual(s) to
RS> correct the behavior,
Christianity in my view is nothing but a dodge to avoid
responsibility for ones actions. Kill someone, accept Jesus into
your life and you're *saved*. I prefer those that take
personal responsibility for their actions in *this* the
only evidenced life.
ML> It may be genetically encoded. Go ahead, "correct" your
ML> eye color.
RS> Eye color is not an act, and
RS> does not involve choice.
Walking is an act and a choice, is it a sin.
Much evidence has been recently uncovered that huge amounts
of human behavior IS genetically encoded.
RS> Sex is
RS> a choice. Celibacy is a choice.
RS> Stealing is a choice. Etc.
Being born with genetic defects is a choice too I suppose.
RS> or else accept the
RS> consequences in the afterlife.
What consequences, what afterlife. Evidence please.
ML> Piss on the afterlife. You may want to waste your real life on
ML> an illusory afterlife, but please don't burden thinking people
ML> with your fanciful, and inane, precepts.
RS> Then, don't ask.
What than are you doing in an atheist oriented echo than, go away
if you don't want to be debunked.
RS> It is not for me to interfere,
So shut up.
ML> But it's OK to be judgemental, condescending and arrogant?
ML> Nice set of values you got there, bucko.
ML> Let me ask you, what's your beliefs on atheism and atheists?
RS> I think that they're mistaken.
We've evidence for our reasoned understanding of reality.
What have you got, fairy tales.
... God: A fairy tale told by humans who fear their own death.
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Re: Evidence?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 11:35:00
EID:89c3 622e5c60
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> ROBERT SAYRE wrote to ROSS SAUER <=-
RS> Nope.
RS> Reality is not defined "by degrees."
RS> It is defined by what can be seen, heard and measured.
RS> I'd say "sensed".
Oh great seer, next weeks Florida lotto numbers please.
Just turn on the old sense, third eye, consult a crystal, whatever.
... God: A fairy tale told by humans who fear their own death.
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|From: George Pope
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 14 Jan 01 15:25:29
EID:be56 622e7b20
MSGID: 1:323/120.0 257aaaf5
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.60d [Beta]
GD> -> On 01 Jan 01 00:20:09, George Pope got back to God Dan
GD>
GD> GD> GD> So, Jesus was the prophet of Mohammed.
GD> GD>
GD> GD> GP> You're really a JW, aren't you?
GD> GD>
GD> GD> You really are a fucking idiot, aren't you.
GD> GD>
GD> GD> GP> I've never known any other group who
GD> GD> GP> could so easily invent non sequitur answers, even when the
facts
GD> GD> GP> glaringly obvious!
GD> GD>
GD> GD> Try checking the ethnicity of arabs, George.
GD>
GD> GP> So you're saying that ALL descendents of Noah's son, Shem, are
GD> GP> disciples of Mohammad?
GD>
GD> Try providing evidence that 'Shem' existed, George.
GD>
GD> GP> ("Semite" refers to descendents of "Shem", one of the sons of Noah;
it
GD> GP> also refers to both/either/or Jews & Arabs -- either way, you're
GD> GP> trying to suggest that all Jews are Semites are Arabs -- I affirmed
th
GD> GP> simple fact that Jesus was Jewish(Semitic, as opposed to Oriental)
GD>
GD> Try providing evidence that Jesus existed, George.
That wasn't the topic of discussion. fundy!
We were discussing whether the Jesus of the Bible, according to the information
we do have, is "oriental" or "semitic"!
Try to stick to one discussion instead of meandering around in that cesspool
you call a mind!
Your friend,
<+]::-{)} (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))
(Yahoo & AOL Instant Messengers' ID=Cyberpope67
ICQ UIN: 32617950; Odigo ID=Cyberpope
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|From: George Pope
|To: Linda Pagels
|Sub: sexuality genetic?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 15:25:29
EID:bc8f 622e7b20
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PID: ViaMAIL! v1.60d [Beta]
LP> He can make all of the theological statements that he wants, George.
LP> There are theological statements of many people about quite a
LP> few gods and goddesses. Why do you deny that their gods not
LP> exist while your unfounded god does?
Where did I do either of those? No other god but the one of the Bible has
ever
validated him/herself to me, so why would I have any concern/interest in
the
others?
Your friend,
<+]::-{)} (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))
(Yahoo & AOL Instant Messengers' ID=Cyberpope67
ICQ UIN: 32617950; Odigo ID=Cyberpope
homepage: http://citizens.nettaxi.com/Cyberpope
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|From: George Pope
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: SC does something RIGHT
|Date: 14 Jan 01 15:25:30
EID:f88e 622e7b20
MSGID: 1:323/120.0 257aaaf7
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.60d [Beta]
JB> GP> Anything more on those election day shenanigans, in which, you
were
JB> GP> saying, the blacks were largely prevented from exercising their
JB> GP> franchise?
JB>
JB> Yes, a meeting was held in Charleston last night where more than 40
JB> people presented evidence of being turned away at just ONE precinct.
JB> They were ALL black. The election commission is on the block at the
JB> moment.
Good! I hope they can do a major shakedown of the no-good who
organized/perpetrated this blatant denial of franchise because of their
racial
hatred! :/
Your friend,
<+]::-{)} (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))
(Yahoo & AOL Instant Messengers' ID=Cyberpope67
ICQ UIN: 32617950; Odigo ID=Cyberpope
homepage: http://citizens.nettaxi.com/Cyberpope
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|From: George Pope
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Brides OF Christ?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 15:25:30
EID:ca7a 622e7b20
MSGID: 1:323/120.0 257aaaf8
PID: ViaMAIL! v1.60d [Beta]
JB> GP> The expectation was there, sure, but that's certainly not evidence
JB> GP> that EVERY male son of a tradesman DID marry!
JB>
JB> Yes there is...he wasn't stoned to death at the city gate. The only
JB> other reason that a male heterosexual wouldn't be married at the age
JB> of 30 would be because he was recognized as a bastard, and Jewish bastards
JB> are not allowed to be married.
Where do you GET this garbage?!?
Jewish bastards COULD and DO marry! There's limitations as to WHO they
can
marry, but that's about the extent of it!
Your friend,
<+]::-{)} (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))
(Yahoo & AOL Instant Messengers' ID=Cyberpope67
ICQ UIN: 32617950; Odigo ID=Cyberpope
homepage: http://citizens.nettaxi.com/Cyberpope
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|From: George Pope
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: sexuality genetic?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 15:25:30
EID:b983 622e7b20
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PID: ViaMAIL! v1.60d [Beta]
ML> GP> "Hell," in the Hebrew Bible, means "death"
ML>
ML> Whoopdee fuck. Everybody ("catch-all...culturally...") adheres
ML> to, believes in the nonsense contain within, or has even heard
ML> of the Hebrew Bible?
This THREAD is about how people(religiods, mostly) have falsely defined
the
"hell" of the Bible as being a place of eternal torture, when it never meant
that -- it always meant, simply, "death". . .
ML> Whoopdee fuck^2. Not all cultures hold to any version of "hell"
ML> and not all cultures buy into, if they cleave unto some form of
ML> divine retribution, believe you have to wait until dead to get
ML> it.
EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK I WAS SAYING, YOU DOOFUS!!!!
ML> GP> to there being any
ML> GP> place of eternal torment where some people go when they die! That's
ML> GP> the only point I'm making -- what is YOUR stance on this subject,
in
ML> GP> this thread, exactly?
ML>
ML> That "hell" is for those who believe in such nonsense. It is
ML> not a "catch-all" nor is it a cultural given.
Well, I was saying that "death" is the 'cultural given' -- "hell" is merely
the
Biblical word for this concept of everybody ending up "dead"!
Your friend,
<+]::-{)} (Cyberpope(the Bishop of ROM!))
(Yahoo & AOL Instant Messengers' ID=Cyberpope67
ICQ UIN: 32617950; Odigo ID=Cyberpope
homepage: http://citizens.nettaxi.com/Cyberpope
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 11:12:00
EID:d8ea 622e5980
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 00e8e5f1
RS>SM>> Either come up with evidence we will accept, Robert,
RS>SM>> or admit that your God does not exist, never has
RS>SM>> existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
RS> Here's the quote that tells me to
RS>denounce God.
Nope.
Here's an analogy....
Let's say you believe that there is an invisible and untouchable apple
on a table you and I are sitting at. An apple you only believe is there,
one that even you can't see or touch.
Show that it exists or admit that it doesn't. OR admit that your belief
is baseless at best.
That isn't a case of demanding that you denounce apples.
It's a case of you being required to demonstrate that your mystical
apple exists....for if you can't do so, even to yourself, then it
doesn't.
Meaning there is no reason to believe it does.
In short, it's a challenge.
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Re: Dark Shadows
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:32:00
EID:9639 622e6400
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 11bad865
MK>>> Basically, "dark matter" or "non-baryonic matter"
MK>>> (weird matter which is almost impossible to detect
MK>>> except by its gravitational effects)
MK>> I know what dark matter is postulated to be, and it's
MK>> NOT exclusively non-baryonic matter.
MK>Uh, Steve, you're being anal retentive.
How so?
My calling you on a wrongful blanket statement of "no" to my rhetorical
question isn't an insult of you or a case of petulance on my side.
Hey, you wrote something to me, and I wrote something to you. And I
thought I was being quite gentle and good natured while doing so. I
don't see how that makes me anal retentive.
Actually, if you believe yourself right and I believe myself right then
that would make us equally guilty of something if anything such were
true.
MK>I specifically spelled out
MK>several times exactly what I meant by "dark matter" in my answer --
I know.
But what YOU consider it to be isn't authoritative at all. Sorry.
I'll take Vera Rubin's offerings per what dark matter is. A more modern
definition than Zwacky's, by the way, and her credentials are good
enough for me.
MK>you quoted one specific instance of it right there. And "dark
MK>matter" is considered to be a term that refers primarily to
MK>non-baryonic matter, by such worthies as Richard Morris, Stephen
MK>Hawking, Steven Weinberg, Paul Davies and Kip Thorne, as well as a
MK>host of others.
Primarily!!!
Primarily because such is what is postulated to be needed MORE. For
the amount of baryonic about isn't enough for the closed
universe case. I've remember reading somewhere that scientists have
postulated that there would have to be 4-5 times as much non-baryonic
matter than baryonic for a closed universe to be the case. (I don't
remember where I saw that though, so you can take it or leave it as you
like)
Back to square one then, dark matter (yep, primarily non-baryonic) IS
integral to the theory of a closed "recycling" universe.
And leave my anus and it's retention out of it!!! :-P
MK>Furthermore, since Wayne stated that he "didn't buy"
MK>dark matter, I had to assume that he was _not_ referring to mere
MK>non-radiating baryonic matter,
Well, that's a good point. For how couldn't he not believe in such.
BUT how could he likewise not believe in neutrinos, for instance,
they've been detected.
MK>since he's sitting on a big chunk of it we like to call Earth. :-)
Well, not a great analogy, for dark matter is matter that is not readily
or easily detected. The Earth surely IS rather easily observed.
MK>Finally, since "hot dark matter" in the f
MK>orm of neutrinos has been detected (and, if they have sufficient
MK>mass, could even be sufficient to close the universe by themselves),
MK>I would assume that Wayne is referring solely to more exotic forms of
MK>non-baryonic dark matter such as WIMPS, axions, shadow matter, cosmic
MK>strings, etc.
Dig. Via his context that would seem to be the case.
But MY rhetorical still wasn't exclusive. Thus, I still say that "yes"
is the correct answer to my rhetorical. Of course. :)
MK>Now, how about you settle down before I slap a light cone on your
MK>ass? :-)
I'm calm as a dew covered dead body, guy. :-P
You're a good guy, and this interchange has been nothing like some of
the "debates" I've had with Todd, for instance. Now THOSE were
maddening. This has been a short pleasant disagreement.
ALTHOUGH you did stoop to name calling and inaccurate assumptions of my
what my state of agitation is. But I'll willingly forgive you. ;)
MK>>> The problem with recycling universes is that
MK>>> the laws of thermodynamics prevent a universe
MK>>> from cycling infinitely between bang-crunch-bang.
MK>>> Such a process would "quickly" (in very, very few
MK>>> rebounds) produce a dead, open universe.
MK>> That's debatable.
MK>To paraphrase Stephen Hawking, if you plan to debate the laws of
MK>thermodynamics, you don't have much of a chance. The laws of
MK>thermodynamics don't let anyone win, break even, or quit the game.
Such laws would apply to individual universes is my point. Each
"successive universe" in any "string of Big Bangs" would be separate and
distinct. Again, in my opinion. I mean REALLY, how could one universe
created from one Big Bang effect another "previous" one? Especially
considering that there is no "before"?
Also, the physics of a(the) singularity is in question.
MK>> Especially considering that each new "Bang" would be
MK>> anew and surely equal in energy/mass as the previous
MK>> ones
MK>Entropy doesn't refer to how _much_ energy is around, it refers to
MK>how much _usable_ energy is around -- it's not how much energy you've
MK>got, but the disequilibrium.
And?
I guess I could take the word "energy" out of my above statement. But I
believe that that would be a mistake. For:
In 1905 Albert Einstein showed, in his special theory of relativity (see
Relativity), that mass and energy are equivalent.
"Conservation Laws," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
-------------------------
MK>But if that would make my point clearly then fine. ;)
In short, the total amount of matter in a closed system remains
constant. Thus in a closed universe the amount of matter (and, yep, thus
energy) would be the same in the product of each new "Bang".
Damn, that's what I said the first time. :-P
MK>You are confused, but I forgive you willingly.
Sorry, but I don't see you as being in any position to
"correct me".
I dare say I'm correct on my main premise, that being that the existence
of dark matter IS integral to the theory of a closed and "recycling"
universe.
I also believe my postulation of "previous" universes as products of
such "recyclings" would not and could not effect "previous" ones.
In short, the "recyclings" would NOT be akin to a bouncing ball that
loses momentum.
MK>I also suggest that we take further discussions on this
MK>topic to private mail as we've probably bored everyone else to tears
MK>with all this stuff. :-)
Shit, guy, people here are doing multiple pun threads and recipes. :-P
MK>I would be quite happy to continue the
MK>discussion there if you like,
Ahhh, I've pretty much blown my wad per the subject. ;)
MK>and assure you that I harbor no ill feelings.
Me either.
Shit, this is a freakin' hobby. It's about entertainment. And I
certainly wasn't all wound up and steaming per this subject.
Not at all. I, like you, was simply offering my opinions and
counterpoints. And, after all, that is what this venue is all about.
And this has been an interesting exchange.
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Cindy Haglund
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:36:00
EID:da2c 622e6480
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 b0a596a1
CH>Atheists don't believe in killing people.
Yeah, we just do it. :-P
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 08:41:00
EID:0495 622e4520
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-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Don Martin <=-
SM>> Either come up with evidence we will accept, Robert,
SM>> or admit that your God does not exist, never has
SM>> existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
RS> Here's the quote that tells me to
RS> denounce God. It was in one of your
I see your problem. Please note how that is worded. You see, that's
a message to you from Sean.
Sean is NOT an atheist, which I'm sure you think he is. He's an
anarchist pagan. Or a pagan anarchist. Whatever.
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Re: Dark Shadows
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:53:00
EID:9639 622e66a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 26464aa0
MK>But if that would make my point clearly then fine. ;)
WHOOPS! I don't know how that happened. Those were my words, not yours.
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|From: Richard Plinston
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 10:06:08
EID:9cdd 622f50c0
MSGID: 3:772/1.0 3a637450
REPLY: 1:205/40 bdf1033e
RP> to survive and grow than other adaptations then they will
RP> dominate at the expense of those less adapted to the new
RP> conditions.
RS> This is the part that is confusing to me.
RS> Why would it be "at the expense of those
RS> less adapted"? Seems that man in different
RS> climates would develop differently due to
RS> the differing diets, climates, predators,
RS> etc.
RS> Man in the tropics should have developed
RS> differently from man in the arctic circle
And when we look at 'man in the tropics' and 'man in the 'arctic'
we do actually find that they have developed differently, different
enough that they do not compete against each other for the same
resources. ie they stay in their adapted places.
RS> without being "at the expense of those
RS> less adapted".
Because Human Beings (the current hominoid species) occupy all
possible niches then any other hominoid species, such as
earlier ones or sub-branches (eg Neanderthal), then these
other species would have to occupy the _same_ environments
as humans. This means that there would be direct competition
for the _same_ resources. Humans, being better adapted
has won those competitions.
Neanderthals did exist up until only a few ten thousand years
ago, just as you required. However as humans out bred and
out competed them they either died off or were directly
killed by humans.
This would have happened over the millions of years as the
new dominant tribes expanded they replaced the less suited
tribes.
Much the same happened in Tasmania in the 19th century. Europeans
went on Abo hunts and wiped them out. They 'believed', based on
what was written in some stupid book, that they were a 'chosen'
species and that that the Aboriginies were mere animals that
could be hunted and killed because their 'god' had 'given'
them dominion over all.
In fact Hitler tried much the same thing in taking over the
eastern part of Europe and eliminating the tribes that
lived there.
Chimpanzees also fight amongst tribes and this will eliminate
weaker competitors for what they see as 'their' resources.
Extrapolate that behaviour back a few million years and you
have the answer to your question.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Robert Sayre
|To: Cindy Haglund
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 14 Jan 01 08:08:00
EID:e2d0 622e4100
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TZUTC: -0800
CH> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
How could you possibly know this to be
true or false?
TTYL.
Robert
* SLMR 2.1a * I must be a sex object. I say sex; she objects!
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 17:18:00
EID:db8c 622e8a40
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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TZUTC: -0500
RS>RS> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RS>RLS> I believe that homosexuality is
RS>RLS> wrong. I believe that it is a sin
RS>RLS> against God, and unnatural. I do
RS>RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and
RS>RS> sinning against God?"
RS> I don't know of any animals having
RS>homosexual sex; but, to sin requires
RS>the knowledge that it IS a sin, and
RS>a CHOICE to commit that sin. Animals
RS>are incapable of sin.
Are they incapable of thought? According to many animal behavior
specialists they can think, and reason.
RS>RS> And what evidence do you have that homosexuality is
RS>RS> a "sin?" Specifically.
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS>requests...
So in other words, all you have is your own stupid prejudice.
It used to be "a sin" for people of other races to marry and/or have
kids.
And the racists who said this could find Biblical verses "justifying"
their asinine prejudice.
Now, what makes homosexuality a "sin?"
Obvious answer: Nothing. Just stupid prejudice.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 17:20:00
EID:95a9 622e8a80
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RS>RS> I like to collect drawings of anthropomorphic animals, those
RS>RS> that have a sort of "cheesecake" appeal, like swimsuit models.
RS>RS> If anyone would like an example, think of one of the characters
RS>RS> from the movie, "Michael Jordan's Space Jam." The one I like is
RS>RS> "Lola Bunny."
RS>RS> Now, there are literally THOUSANDS of drawings of these, and
RS>RS> people have been drawing them since even before the Bible was
RS>RS> written.
RS>RS> I even have photographs of them! Yes! I do!
RS>RS> Now, are these simply a harmless fantasy, or are they real?
RS>RLS> If you HAVE them, they must be real
RS>RLS> photos and drawings.
RS>RS> But is the subject of the photos and drawings real?
RS>RS> Why or why not?
RS> No, because we know that they were
RS>humanly created (and usually by whom).
Are the artists simply creating what is in their imagination?
Can you prove they don't exist for real?
So why then is your deity something other than just imagination,
combined with ignorance and desire for control?
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: GEORGE POPE
|Sub: Brides OF Christ?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 20:18:00
EID:c225 622ea240
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TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting George Pope to Judith Bandsma <=-
GP> Jewish bastards COULD and DO marry! There's limitations as to WHO
GP> they can marry, but that's about the extent of it!
You better check with a rabbi, Georgie. In orthodox Judaism...which is
what Jesus would have subscribed to...bastards are NOT permitted to
marry. Siblings of suicides are not permitted to marry. There's a lot
of proscriptions.
And I get it from the rabbi here in Charleston. We've had many talks
about such things.
Sure, Jewish bastards can and do marry today in reform and conservative
congregations. In biblical times a bastard, if it's mother wasn't stoned
to death, was an outcast even if a man came forward to marry the mother.
You didn't stop being a bastard by benefit of marriage.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 20:19:00
EID:beef 622ea260
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TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting John Wilson to Judith Bandsma <=-
JW> Jeremiah Ostriker and Paul J. Steinhardt are both professors at
JW> Prinction
Professors of WHAT?????
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: SALLY SPRINGETT
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 11:43:33
EID:2e08 622e5d60
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 c1f22cbc
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
REPLYADDR HOLYSMOKE-LIST@salata.com
GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Blanche Nonken
X-Ftn-To: SALLY SPRINGETT
(posted TO: SALLY SPRINGETT)
FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
> FTN-Posted-By: SALLY SPRINGETT
> (posted TO: BLANCHE NONKEN)
> BN> In my opinion, better. The crust is more tender, flakier, has
> BN> a lovely golden color and a finer crumb. A little harder to
> BN> handle, as chicken fat's fairly liquid at room temperature.
> BN> So I chill the bowl, the flour, the fat and the other
> BN> ingredients first.
>
> I'll have to try it. I make at least one pie every single year.
email me at momblanche@bigfoot.com and I'll send you detailed
instructions on the best way to render fat for pie crusts.
---
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:01:57
EID:cfba 622d5020
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027a8
REPLY: 1:18/140 b0167b9d
MG>> Pepper, Sage, some extra chicken fat. Dr. L has had his
MG>> taste buds killed by too much o' dat brown stuff.
JB> Rib of celery, carrot (for flavor, not to eat), some good
JB> homemade noodles.
Absolutely. Grate the carrots.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: holiday git
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:06:26
EID:e47c 622d50c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027a9
REPLY: 1:18/140 1e34c0c4
MG>> being p[unished for his atheism. I was seriously thinking
MG>> about flying up there and taking him to dinner. He dosn't
MG>> sound like has has anyone to talk to.
JB> You got an email address for him?
ssherman@midsouth.rr.com is the last one that Ihave. I think that it's
correct as I've used it to initiate correspondance rather than just replying
to something.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:11:27
EID:15aa 622d5160
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027aa
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58ab1e
JW>> And no, I wouldn't have you believe I'm a rational theist,
JW>> rational is a cold way of living a life....
MG>> It pays the bills.
JW> Well sure! And so does being an
JW>> Esoteric Christian, mystic, believer in Magick,
JW>> panentheist, old fart, whatever label you wish....
Sometimes not. I see a lot of "god will provide a ram" rationale. I am
convinced that I am ultimately responsible for myself and my actions. I
need no god to do anything for me.
MG>> you make no bones about not having the evidence. It does
MG>> not make it any better.
JW> It's not supposed to be *convincing*. :-)
JW> How can one evidence non-replicable experience?
Admit that it is a load of rubbish and move on.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:13:59
EID:15aa 622d51a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027ab
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58afd0
MG>> ...parents that killed their kids not through
MG>> determined abuse but sheer ignorance.
MG>> There is no god that would allow this sort of thing.
JW> Because the God you don't believe in has to act in a
JW> certain way? And if She existed, wouldn't allow bad things
JW> to happen?
I think that you might finally be catching on.
JW> It *almost* seems that you `evidence' your atheisism at
JW> least partly on the fact that bad things happen.
Atheism is a logical deducation that no gods exist since there seems to
be evidence to show that they do exist. I will state again that a god that
exists while guys pick of kids inside a church, is either:
1. Powerless
2. Nonexistant
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: holiday git
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:17:16
EID:6cb8 622d5220
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027ac
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58b0fe
MG>> ...I'm sure that somewhere, he might get
MG>> the thought from someone that he was being p[unished for
MG>> his atheism...
JW> In this kindly theist's opinion, those `theologians'
JW> should be whipped to death.
Not really. Hate should not be banned, but it is not a very christian trait.
I doubt seriously that I'm wrong about the existance of a god, but if I
am, I'll just let god deal with this little fellow.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:18:32
EID:685a 622d5240
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027ad
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3a58af92
DM> Number One Son gave me a smapler pack of single-malts
DM> for christmas, and we split 50 ccs of Talisker New Years
DM> Eve (not terribly heavy comsumers): rich, smokey, and the
DM> flavor lasts. I am saving up to get a whole bottle (it is a
DM> tad pricey).
Yes 'tis. This is often the case with rare and sought after things. A
case of Wild turkey, on the other hand, can be had for a rag picker's wages.
Enjoy.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:21:34
EID:0a25 622d52a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027ae
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58c9a6
JW>> if `irritating fundys' is the ultimate goal here, I am
JW>> really not your...uh...target. Sorry. :-)
MG>> In that, you are wrong.
JW> Then I have taken to much at heart the error given by
JW> someone (M.L.?) as the purpose...
I think you have misunderstood. Deists of all stripes are the targets here.
You may try to show the mantle of reason, but this does not mean that you
are just another deist with no evidence for his god. No matter how many
times you readily admit tot his, it does nto change the fact.
JW> Y'know, not often but I sometimes think that the
JW> `worthwhileness' is true only for me; aiding me in being my
JW> charming, positive
Background. All religion is a personal thing, so the worthiness of someone's
articular brand of deism is not the question. Whether it is worthwhile
to believe in any sort of god is on trial here.
JW> Cautious, after being so quickly judged/insulted and, yes,
JW> perhaps a bit reticent as my command of English is (still!)
JW> not what I wish it to be and the subject matter here is not
JW> trivial. I'll try to be more forthcomming...
Have right at it. Won't change much though. We love to throw sticks and
stones.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:26:13
EID:0a25 622d5340
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027af
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58b80a
MG>> But you should. Rationality should be part of your life in
MG>> every aspect.
JW> Nonsense. There is art, music, love, poetry, friendship...
There is rationality in all of the above. there are plenty of masters of
painting that painted precisly what they saw without a glimpse of their
interpretation. totally rational. Love and friendship is totally rational.
You don't pick a friend or lover from a crowd at random. There are precedents
that you have for their selection. Music and poetry, while less so, are
alos based on rationality. We use rational thought to compose and interpret
them.
I won't argue that after a blistering day, you cannot put your feet up and
listen to music to relax, to try and empty your head. yet that same music
on another day might be listened to for different reasons. when your mind
is sharper, you are trying to discern just what the composer was trying
to say. You cannot ever quit rational thought. and you certainly cannot
quit using it for important things, like picking friends, picking candidates,
picking gods (or picking no gods).
JW> Having answers with regard to "God" is not rational:
JW> You have no answers either. No evidence for a dark matter
JW> galaxy does not imply that there is none.
I do not recall you ever saying that. there are some unexplained questions
about the Universe. Dark Matter is a theory. You might want to posit that
"god" is just as good a theory, but most scientists don't want to theorize
god. Every time int he past when a god is theorized to have caused something,
it gets shown false. Never any evidence tht a god was involved.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:37:46
EID:0a25 622d54a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b0
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58b6a0
MG>> point is that religion of some form has been a major force
MG>> in your life...
JW> True..
MG>>, yet you have picked your god almost at random as well
MG>> as your belief system.
JW> Not true.
A self admitted deist that has no evidence for a god in which he believes?
an admittedly important part of your life yet you have no evidence that
your god is even around? This is the lack of rationale that makes me wonder
about deism. You may have read, you may have studied, you may have put
great effort in your selection of a deism but you have no evidence that
the god of your deism exists.
JW> Have you read any Gurdjieff?
I tried to read philosophy many years ago and found it four plus dull and
boring.
JW> The thought made me laugh. No hell was built by *my* God.
JW> She's too busy making wine and marzipan. 'Sides, there'd be
JW> none to people it.
JW> :-)
MG>> This is the atheist's answer to Pascal's Wager, that you
MG>> may as well believe as it does no harm.
JW> A brilliant guy with a dumb Wager...
MG>> Yet you may have
MG>> done all the harm, if you are wrong and an Old Testament
MG>> god tortures you for eternity
JW> Fear is no part of my religion...
Your religion is not a part of The Wager. it is all the other religions
that are part of this. You see, you may believe in a very loving, kindly,
limited god or whatever but if you are wrong you will pay. Maybe the fundies
are aright and we are wrong. maybe there is an old testament god around
who will toss us in hell for not having the right beliefs? Your god not
having a hell around for sinners has nothing to do with it.
JW> ------------
JW> Great, vast, interesting disagreements! And I'm not a bible
JW> scholar. Merely an interested student.
JW> Dt-Is = deutero-Isaiah = chapters 35 on...written much
JW> later by an unknown author (or authors)
Makes no difference. it is a well known fact that some of Shakespear's
plays were altered by the editors. what do we have today? Just what was
written there. so if you are a bible literalist, you have no choice but
to believe thta god created evil. yet, when presented with this dilemma,
the literalist will often produce apologetics about how that passage doesn't
really mean that or it was a passage added later, et al.
So we says to the fundies "Sorry, Charlie. It's in the Bible. If you want
to believe the Bible es geschribt, that's your problem."
MG>> powerless to accomplsih good things without evil? The
MG>> writer of the passage has attributed to god his own
MG>> weakness.
JW> Yes. Not a singular instance.
So the bible is not really divinely inspried but portrays gods and religion
based on the human experience of the writers and no more?
MG>> It still doesn't dound like much of a god.
JW> My first thought like that came when I first thought the
JW> snake was poorly represented in Genesis...I was delighted to
JW> read in the recently discovered Gnostic Gospels (at Naj
JW> Hamaddi) that the story was told from the perspective of the
JW> snake! :-)
You may remember Andrew Lloyd Weber and his "J.C. Superstar" that came out
in the early 70's. It told the story more from the point of view of Judas.
While the whole story of the ressureaction is total bullshit, the story
told from the traditional villian's point of view was interesting.
However, it still dosen't sound like much of a god.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 10:54:28
EID:0a25 622d56c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b1
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58c310
MG>> ...Physical presence
MG>> is always an indicator of existance.
JW> I smile at the necessity of making this statement. I was
JW> nodding in agreement, 'till I remembered, I have a friend
JW> who is visited by a deceased mother from time to time...and
JW> this friend *believes* in the mothers' physical
JW> presence...but that's a nit-pick :-)
Sure it is. Visitations by the deceased have about as much evidence for
them as a god does for it.
MG>> do this with a god. Iw ould say that this puts your
MG>> philosophical position in danger.
JW> Only a dangger in its being accepted by y'all.
JW> (On second thought, my position is always in danger...I
JW> challenge it often and regularly. How else to buttressit?)
Now I think you are finally figuring out the echo's purpose.
MG>> You may get posts form
MG>> someone called god, but you would have trouble digging up
MG>> the evidence that this really was a god or someone just
MG>> fooling around with you.
JW> Yes. This is why I have come to admire the teachings of
JW> one G.I. Gurdjueff: his are largely (if internally)
JW> provable, when he talks about (to take a trivial example)
JW> mind-wandering, The difficulties of attention and methods
JW> of extending it. His examinations of consciousness. (He
JW> never refers to `God' but does refer to "The Absolute" about
JW> which he says nothing can be known. I understand that there
JW> are so-called `schools' that teach his stuff, but I'm not
JW> interested in `group workings' :-)
This kind of stuff is best left to the Pope. Any scientist will admit that
there is unfound knowledge, but to believe that we cannot acheive all knowledge
is prattle. I'm not sure that there is even evidence that this "ABsolute
even exists. There may well be some knowledge that we don't even know exists.
Not a problem. when we find out about it, we'll learn it then. the only
limit I can see to put on this, is one of time. we may not be able to learn
eveything before our the day comes when our time in the universe is
up. But this is not that day.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Jitender Saan
|Sub: Pics ...
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:03:07
EID:0f62 622d5860
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b2
REPLY: 1:18/140 bae1eedb
JS> Hey, it doesn't have to be recent. We are trying to give a
JS> face to a name here so even an old picture shouldn't be a
JS> problem.
JS> What is the URL to Jack Yate's site?
ldl.net/~myzr/myzr.htm
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:05:25
EID:fc50 622d58a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b3
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a58c56a
MG>> It's humerous that fundies will try to attack evolution on
MG>> a bacterial level...
JW> I coulda been a flaming fundy if my work in a class in
JW> bacteriology turned out to be `true'!
And it's just the way that fundies get their jollies.
"You see. Science makes mistakes".
Yet science also has a mechanism for correcting it's mistakes. where does
that occur in your field of religion?
They have no answer.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:08:48
EID:75d4 622d5900
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b4
REPLY: 1:393/9005.30 3a5899a8
MG>> I get paid for trying to explain away the mysteries of
MG>> life. Why do these stop at religion and god? Why would the
MG>> Pope ask Stephen Hawking not to investigate the universe
MG>> before the Big Bang?
GD> Sounds like a conflict of income to me...
Gnaw. I smell fear.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Blanche Nonken
|Sub: (fwd) Re: The Captain of the Men of Death
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:09:52
EID:b610 622d5920
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b5
REPLY: 1:102/125.99 5ec7c3d6
BN> I passed this on to him in the newsgroup; when he responds
BN> should I give you guys each others' email addresses?
I see he sent me an email, but Ihave not responded yet. Now that I see
what he is doing, I can admit that I have heard of this before with specific
gas detectors.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Blanche Nonken
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:11:26
EID:2d4f 622d5960
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b6
REPLY: 1:102/125.99 4a2bffed
BN> I save the chicken fat for pie crusts. No, really. None
BN> of that Crisco shit. Plain, unflavored rendered chicken fat
BN> makes the _best_ pie crusts.
Pot pies?
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Blanche Nonken
|Sub: Holy shit
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:13:56
EID:2e4d 622d59a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b7
REPLY: 1:102/125.99 d6af6d52
BN> A friend has highly recommended the new art film "Quill."
I've not heard of this epic.
BN>
Uh, oh.....
I recall yoko Ono's great Opus called "Smile" which fetured 8 hours of Joun
Lennon smiling.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: Holy shit
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:20:21
EID:2e98 622d5a80
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b8
REPLY: 1:18/140 86cc72e4
RS> Also EVERY DAMM TIME I went to the theater, some asshole
RS> just HAD to bring their younger than 3 year old brat.
RS> Which usually screamed at 140 DB, or was constantly running
RS> around and running up to Daddy and/or Mommy, "WHY? WHY?
RS> WHAT? WHY?"
The first time we took the kids to see the old Fantasia some hundred years
ago or so, there was a four year old that wouldn't shut up in the front.
After twenty minutes, the mother finally took the chold out of the theater
so we could watch in peace. Used to be that theaters had "crying rooms"
for noisy kids where parents could take them.
RS> No I haven't been to a theater since 1994.
Almost beat you. Only once since then.
RS> Besides, I just LUV being able to FF through the boring
RS> parts.
FF was invented by men to get to the "good parts". Mostly, where she takes
her clothes off.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:24:02
EID:e7c9 622d5b00
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b9
REPLY: 1:18/140 3c83576b
MG>> Do you fill the house with the aroma of distilling
MG>> corncobs?
ML> Only as much as you fill yours with the redolence of
ML> rotting compost and loch water.
Along with the bouquet of the finest tht the Honduras has to offer.
MG>> I'm told
MG>> that aroma therapy is the rage these days.
ML> Come drive a while down here. I'll gives ya' rage.
Where the hell are ya? Still the same place?
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Gold
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:43:27
EID:5905 622d5d60
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a603fa5
REPLY: 1:18/140 26fd73a5
MG>> Scotch has an aroma of taste and culture.
ML> Aroma like a bagpiper's convention after the haggis and
ML> culture like what's found between their toes.
And the bourbon bottles are what the pipers use to pee in. No one can tell
the diffrence.
MG>> Bourbon has only the aroma of culture. E. coli to be
MG>> prcise.
ML> But only the friendly kind.
Not many of those. they evolve to quickly.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:45:07
EID:8cfc 622d5da0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a603fa6
REPLY: 1:18/140 97ff026a
MG>> Anyone that likes bourbon would be unbelievable.
ML> Hey, Herr Dok: "I'm lying".
You've given up rocks and gone into used cars or religion?
ML>
Why would you lie about liking bourbon? (This is a rhetorical question)
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:47:30
EID:5a4b 622d5de0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a603fa7
REPLY: 1:18/140 8801d7b9
MG>> Yeah. He's dead. Musta done his wine before his time.
ML> We'll all end up that way. It's the stuff you do before
ML> that's important.
Unless you count "fertilizer".
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:51:15
EID:e7c9 622d5e60
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a603fa8
REPLY: 1:18/140 462d1cc8
ML>> Fuckin'-A, no shit. Next thing you know, he'll be
ML>> washing it all down with Pabst Blue Ribbon...
Reminds me of the famous baseball pitcher Mel Fame'. he got drunk one night
on Pabst Blue Ribbon the day before pitching in a game with New York and
blew it in the first inning by issuing walks to the first thirty two batters.
After that, in new York, Pabst became known as "the beer that made Mel Fame'
walk us."
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Fundy lies
|Date: 13 Jan 01 11:54:55
EID:caa1 622d5ec0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a603fa9
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a5ba1d4
MK>> It was pointed
JW> MK<> out that we know many of the chemicals which cause the
JW> emotional
JW> MK<> responses we call "love."
JW> Which is not evidence. (many is not all, and the mechinism
JW> that ties the emotion with the brain that produces that
JW> `emotion' and to reduce love to those chemicals is to reduce
JW> the concept into a mechinical form that you, if you have
JW> experienced love, would not yourself accept.
Here is where you go fundy on us. The dats is that love and other emotions
are caused by chemicals. they are evidenced. I have their structures.
I can provide you with mass spec analysis if you like of all of them that
are known. yet you claim that this is not evidence and continue to claim
that there is mroe to love than chemicals. It sounds like the Pythonian
definition of arguement, the automatic gainsaying of what another person
says".
Besides, whether they cause love or not is not important. they exist and
they have evidence that they do exist, unlike a god of any description.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: God Dan
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 01:51:18
EID:b5ce 622e0e60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a610616
-> On 12 Jan 01 18:12:41, Jake Campbell got back to Cindy Haglund
CH> I believe Religion is wrong. It's ...unnatural....
JC> Then why is there so much of it? How is it any more wrong than
JC> masturbation?
You answered your own question.
Now, wipe yourself off.
... Every man has his price, and your's is pretty low.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 01:53:38
EID:6591 622e0ea0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a6106a2
-> On 07 Jan 01 10:10:00, Robert Sayre got back to God Dan
MG> Why do some christians hate homosexuals?
RS> You'd have to ask THEM.
GD> So, you love homosexuals. Which one are you married to?
RS> You seem to have a very limited list of
RS> possibilities. Why are there only these
RS> extremes?
So, you sometimes love them and then sometimes hate them?
RS> I love my sisters and brothers, but I
RS> wouldn't want to live with any of them. :^)
Thus following the tenets of your god tha says you have to
hate them.
... Good thing about fundies: They're biodegradable.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 01:55:21
EID:2232 622e0ee0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a610709
-> On 13 Jan 01 03:40:00, JUDITH BANDSMA got back to GOD DAN
BN> I save the chicken fat for pie crusts. No, really. None of
SS> Is it really as good as lard?
GD> Best guess is that you'd have to confirm that with Ed Wierd...
JB> I thought that was Cornish game hens.
I'm just trying to envision any fowl that Ed doesn't have a
rather strange lear at!
... "Bother," said Pooh as he caught his gonads on barbed wire.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 02:03:49
EID:91d5 622e1060
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a610905
-> On 07 Jan 01 11:22:00, Robert Sayre got back to Judith Bandsma
RS> You mean, like cold fusion?
Unlike "gods" that are stilled claimed to exist.
Fantasy Land must be your favorite place to go to when your
are in Disneyland.
... HolySmoke: More fundies per capita than found in a Reno whorehouse.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 14 Jan 01 02:09:35
EID:6cc8 622e1120
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a610a5f
-> On 12 Jan 01 05:53:00, John Wilson got back to Marty Leipzig
JW> Oh, a hero of mine once said that you should find a closet somewhere
JW> and do it
ML> Oh? You've come out of the closet?
JW> From silly, you now descend to infantile.
He's attempting to get down to your level. Obviously, it's
not coming close to getting that low.
... +Origin: To hell with Falwell. Support the Teletubbies!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 14 Jan 01 02:25:00
EID:2e44 622e1320
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a610dfc
-> On 12 Jan 01 18:15:44, Jake Campbell got back to John Wilson
GD>> You have yet to realize that no one gives a shit.
JW> I *am* begining, to their loss, to realize just that.
JC> I've been watching you present yourself for abuse for a month or so.
JC> I've been looking for an opportunity to jump in. I am just a shade
JC> more theist than agnostic, which could get me called a Fundy 'round
JC> here.
JC> Well, in for a penny...
Reasonable theists tend to be few in number. No one should have
a care about what someone happens to think. What they should care
about is when someone says that they must think something without
evidence to back it up.
Now, drop in your ante and try not to fold before the first
random card is dealt. After all, the stacked decks are already
run by those religionists.
... "He killed her in a rit of fealous jage." Inspector Clouseau
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: ROSS SAUER
|Sub: The universe 4
|Date: 14 Jan 01 02:27:34
EID:d496 622e1360
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a610e96
-> On 12 Jan 01 12:29:00, ROSS SAUER got back to GOD DAN
GD> RS> On 01-09-01, JUDITH BANDSMA said to TODD HENSON:
GD> JB>answering the one above. Go ahead. Make a change in your normal
GD> JB>pattern.
GD> RS> He can't.
GD> RS> His head would explode if he even tried.
GD>'Implode' is the word you should have used.
RS> You're right.
Yeah, I knew that. Now, help me get my arm back in the sling
after breaking it patting myself on the back... ;)
... Need to point? See SQ for more info
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 16:25:10
EID:91d5 622e8320
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a61d2e6
-> On 07 Jan 01 14:24:00, Robert Sayre got back to Don Martin
RS> Yet, she inferred that there IS
RS> evidence. That's the position that
RS> I wanted her to justify.
RS> If colored eggs are the evidence,
RS> religious artifacts are evidence,
RS> too.
There are enough pieces of the true cross to build a good sized
mansion.
No, as Don suggested, connect the dots.
... Yeah, riiight! God created OLD fossils, did He??
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: TODD HENSON
|Sub: Is this guy at all sane?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 18:15:00
EID:bf76 622d91e0
MSGID: 1:128/148.2@fidonet 06918fdf
REPLY: 1:10/345 0f527b28
PID: FM+ 2.26.SW SW0000D2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
CODEPAGE: 437
>> As always, pathetic.
>>
TH> That seems to be your standard cop-out. I was fairly certain that you
TH> wouldn't put your money where your mouth is.
Kindly please provide some genuine, direct, faith-independent evidence for
the existence of your "God".
Or make a public admission here in HolySmoke that he does not exist, never
has existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
One or the other, please, NOW.
"ANSWER the question, Todd."
slack -- s.
--- FMail 0.94
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|From: John Wilson
|To: All
|Sub: Sky and Telescope B 03/0
|Date: 14 Jan 01 11:41:02
EID:f6a9 622e5d20
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6200ce
* Originally in: Science
* Originally on: 01-14-01 14:21
* Originally by: Bob Eyer
* Originally to: Earl Truss
> LARGEST STRUCTURE IN THE UNIVERSE?
>
> On Earth, the largest structure erected by humans is the Great
> Wall of China. In space, the largest structure detected by
> astronomers is the Great Wall of galaxies beyond the Virgo
> Cluster. Or maybe not. Gerard Williger (National Optical
> Astronomy Observatories) announced at this week's meeting of the
> American Astronomical Society that he and his colleagues have
> found a remote group of quasars and galaxies in Leo that's nearly
> twice as big as the Great Wall, which itself spans 300 million
> light-years.
>
> Williger's team was drawn to the cluster by the presence of 18
> quasars, all with redshifts in the range 1.2 to 1.4, in a patch of
> sky measuring just 5 degrees by 2.5 degrees. Lacking enough
> telescope time to cover the field with long-exposure images and to
> collect spectra of whatever faint galaxies they might find there,
> the astronomers instead simply obtained spectra of the quasars
> themselves. They noticed numerous magnesium absorptions notched
> into the quasars' light by gas in intervening galaxies. "We found
> three times more galaxies than expected" based on typical
> galaxy/quasar ratios, said Williger. Most of the galaxies lie in
> the same redshift range, and therefore presumably at the same
> distance, as the quasars, suggesting that they're all part of one
> giant cluster.
>
> The assemblage extends about 500 million light-years in length,
> width, and depth and is centered about 6.5 billion light-years
> from Earth. This means we're seeing it as it appeared when the
> universe was about a third of its present age. As with the Great
> Wall, theorists are hard pressed to explain how gravity could have
> built up such a huge structure in so little time. Williger and
> his coworkers hope to tease some additional clues from the cluster
> with follow-up observations.
This observational evidence runs contrary to the traditional
interpretation of quasars.
Quasi-stellar objects (Quasars) are supposed to be temporally
anisotropic--found only at the very greatest distances and
therefore extremely close to the Big Bang.
It now appears that astronomers (e.g. Williger's team) are
detecting quasars merely as other objects which occur along with
ordinary galaxies within walls of galaxies, and much farther
away from the Big Bang (perhaps 12 billion years later).
This is the kind of evidence which could throw a major monkey
wrench into the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe.
Bob
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|From: John Wilson
|To: All
|Sub: The universe
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:08:06
EID:bc07 622e6100
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a620726
* Originally in: Phil
* Originally on: 01-12-01 23:00
* Originally to: Dave Oldridge
-=> DAVE OLDRIDGE wrote to TODD HENSON <=-
DO> ...I have found that the existence of
DO> God cannot be rigorously inferred from anything IN time. This
DO> may be a feature, not a bug.
:-) !
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Re: Anybody not ice this
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:16:08
EID:37d2 622e6200
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a620908
-=> Robert Sayre wrote to Ross Sauer <=-
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS> requests...
They never tire of it...
RLS> If it doesn't affect these, then,
RLS> as Benny Hill says: "I think that
RLS> Lebanese and homosapiens should be
RLS> left to their own devices, really
RLS> I do".
RS> Hill was a comedian, and he was making a joke.
RS> And, I thought it funny enough to
RS> repeat it. (Many times.)
And atheists, it seems, have their own destinctive sense of humour.
...when present. :-)
Cheers!
... Preach the gospel all the time; if necessary use words--St Francis
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:42:10
EID:7b53 622e6540
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a620f22
-=> Don Martin wrote to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> So these people could be scientists and still not know
JB> what they're talking about.
Proven in this very echo! :-)
JB> I'm not likely to have any
JB> confidence in an inorganic chemist talking about
JB> cosmology.
I agree with this. (Does that lack of confidence include
an immunologist talking about theology?)
... Add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;... -- 2 Peter 1:5
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Wayne Chirnside
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 12:53:12
EID:5cc1 622e66a0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6211b8
-=> WAYNE CHIRNSIDE wrote to ROBERT SAYRE <=-
WC> Your fairy tale has had no supporting evidence for a couple
WC> thousand years, cold fusion weas debunked in a couple of months.
WC> Apply the same standards to the bible as to cold fusion and
WC> the bible loses big time.
When it comes to *lasting* the bible wins by a ratio of 12000:1 :-)
The big fat ugly problem is trying to "apply the same standards"
If you want to look at it as a science book, it fails.
As a guide to life it fails to some and to others it does not.
You will never get `supporting evidence.' Necessary for science,
not for religion.
Robert hasn't read all of the bible, yet believes in it.
I havn't read all of the Encyclopedia Brittanica either,
but I use it for reference and "believe" in it.
... The East is lost in incense, the West is lost in footnotes.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Cindy Haglund
|Sub: Re: Foxholes
|Date: 14 Jan 01 13:48:14
EID:8255 622e6e00
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a621e9e
-=> Cindy Haglund wrote to ALL <=-
CH> Favorite xtian adage?: "You'll find no atheists in foxholes."
CH> Yup. While this adage is meant to be derogatory from the xtian
CH> pov I believe it isn't.
CH> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
Did not atheists serve in the armed forces in WWI? WWII? Korea?
Desert Storm?
(Later) I have just read Tim's list of names :-)
Sadly it seems theists, atheists all; *people* believe in killing people.
Oh.
Do athiests in general have one opinion concerning the death penalty?
And, as I have personally experienced, the adage is simply not true.
(Korea)
The Christian *point* though, is what Samuel Johnson wrote:
The thought of death wonderously concentrates the mind. (From memory, but
I
believe it's very close to being an exact quote)
I, personally think that problems have solutions. There is no
`solution' to death, so how can it be a problem? Carpe diem!
and
\
\
_\|
... Laissez les bon temps rouler!
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: Foxholes
|Date: 14 Jan 01 14:00:16
EID:37fd 622e7000
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a622170
-=> JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to CINDY HAGLUND <=-
CH> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
JB> You are, as usual, wrong again. Atheists just don't use the 'god
JB> told me to do it' defense. And they don't kill in the name of
JB> some god.
My first theological surprise was when I first heard the *very*
popular (read: often-played) song "Praise the Lord and pass the
ammunition."
That would be 1942.
I thought well, if God WAS going to pick a side, if He is THAT kind of God
then I suppose, yes He would pick *our* side. But if He were to *really*
"Choose" there wouldn't be any war in the first place. Propaganda, but
*our* propaganda. *There* propaganda is, of course, brain-washing :-)
----------
`Comedy team'? You have a sense of humour? Life is *full* of surprises.
... Laissez les bon temps rouler!
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|From: John Wilson
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Re: Scientific Method
|Date: 14 Jan 01 14:15:18
EID:cc39 622e71e0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6224f6
-=> God Dan wrote to John Wilson <=-
-> On 11 Jan 01 14:14:12, John Wilson got back to God Dan
JW> And you have yet to realize that that is *exactly* what I object to.
GD> You have yet to realize that no one gives a shit.
JW> I *am* begining, to their loss, to realize just that.
GD> So, John, pull the handle on the device that is named after
GD> you and flush yourself before we need to call in the septic
GD> service.
Elsewhere you mentioned having attended college.
Sometimes that is reflected in your posts. This is not one of those times.
... I considered atheism, but there weren't enough holidays.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Cindy Haglund
|Sub: Re: Still don't get "fre
|Date: 14 Jan 01 16:11:20
EID:195e 622e8160
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a624028
-=> Cindy Haglund wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
CH> ...Yet I don't see much
CH> getting through.
By "getting through" do you mean agreeing with atheism?
No, you sure don't. Not an inch. All that gets through to me
that it seems satisfying to some to keep saying that a scientific
viewpoint somehow expunges the concept of anything for which there is no
tangable evidence. A surface examanation of history in general
reveals that religious belief is a powerful force and is easily
corrupted by those who think religion is a money making device, or a means
to power.
Individually, however, it is (always) a different matter entirely.
CH> The Bible is a book JOhn. Understand? It was written by men.
...uh...yes. Many. Thats what I've been saying.
CH> "Inspired by God" you say?
No, that is NOT what I say. I say many people in the past and even now
*believe* that it was `writ by the very hand of the Akmighty.'
But you don't have to believe that or be a scholar to enjoy it.
Ephesians, Galatians, what's not to like?
Ah, well, some people, I suppose, don't enjoy the "Ode On A Grecian Urn"
Which I think to be the greatest thing ever written in English.
Biased? Moi?
CH> Well hate to bust your ark honey
I did laugh out loud at *that*.
CH> but
CH> um inspiration is a construct of the human mind; and so isn't
CH> "GOD".
Is that a question? Insiration, of course *means* literally,
`breathed in' so is by definition influened by externals,
be they something observed that brings invention or creative thought,
angels, perhaps, God(des(s)), Muses. Actually damn near everything
is a constrict of the human mind. Our understanding, our knowing,
what reality IS. (I am assuming sanity on both ends of this line,
presumptious as that may be! :-)
CH> Actually people just get frustrated saying the same thing over
CH> and over and over again. That's just 'human nature' for you.
...but not a learning process. Demanding some sort of scientificly
acceptible evidence for something they *know* cannot be brought
under the scrutiny of the microscope. I don't care what my God
smells like, I don't comprehend the scale or depth of thought
involved in such a deity. But to consider the possibility that there might
be a *ton* of intermediate steps 'twixt Here and There....ah,
Like Fraser, if any Angel 16th Grade or hight wants to communicate,
`I'm listening....'
24/7
CH> What is "HOLY" John? As in water?
CH> Some fat assed
Since when is rotund, pleasingly plump, a target?
CH> priest or
CH> whatever waves his meaty little hand
"meaty" What ELSE would it be made of? :-)
"little" You are anti-small handedness? :-)
Man, you've got a bucket-full of dislike there...
CH> ovver some water and says
CH> it's holy!? OH come on.... bullpoop.
I take it you are not a Catholic. :-)
Not one likely to be converted by a fat-assed, meaty, small-handed
Priest. Nope. Not *this* week, anyway.
CH> State the physical properties of 'holy' John.
I consider my pledged word is holy. What IS holy?
Before I get to my small dictionary, my quick answer is that
holy is what I say it is. I'm trying to think of another example of what
I consider holy......
"Worthy of absolute devotion."
Wow! My cat has been right all along!
Seriously "Having a devine quality" is next, in a ritual
there is a consecration, a blessing...I guess it's trying to give good
vibes to something...which is a roundabout way of saying you realize,
that's a great question you asked and the answer is, I don't know.
Thank you for making me realize that.
A Holy Grail for Truth, perhaps?
CH> Did you run a test
CH> on this so called 'holy water' and find out something 'there'
CH> extra?
I've forgotten the reference. Sorry.
JW>not deal, and those who take the view that that book should be thrown
away;
JW>but no substitute for what to some is a way of life. And without the
JW>courtesy/modesty to be agnostic! :-)
CH> Blahblahblahbah blather John.
Does this mean you disagree, or don't understand, or just think it high
time for you to be discurteous?
CH> Profound? Yes most fantasies are quite profound, yet shallow in
CH> reality.
A shallow book of fantasy that lasts for almost two thousand years?
A book that through the centurys has inspired (in addition to wars,
torture and other unpleasentness) poems, books, plays, paintings, music
and any and all parts of anything you name that has a vestage of culture
attached, and *you* airily dismiss it as *shallow* ?
ohhhhhkaaaay.
CH> I think John, you are behind in reality.
Judgment noted.
CH> Or money? I mean that's what religion is for ... mostly.
That is not what religion is for. Religion is for having life and
living it more abundantly. And it been so fucked up primarily by TV, even
worse is radio, to scare people with thoughts of hell, sympathy-mongers
snake-oil salesmen, they were evidently around in profusion in New
Testament times...as it was in the begining so it is and so shall it be...
CH> The person who is tired of asking you the same thing over and
CH> over
CH> again. It's a vent John.
You want simple answers to complex questions? Or do you just want to vent?
What?
... I've no monopoly on truth...just a large holding....
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Mark Kimes Mark Kimes wrote to Marty Leipzig <=-
JW>> If value is not of scientific interest
MK<> One might well view scientific method as a means of ferreting out
MK<> value from fields of dross. What John-boy actually means is that
MK<> scientific value is not of interest to him, perhaps.
Not even close.
MK<> Ah, but he's giving away his real problem there -- he's looking
MK<> at "bleakness regarding death" rather than "worthwhile value in
MK<> life."
About 180 degrees wrong-o
> immutability.
But finally:
MK<> John-boy's just telling you that his religion is better than
MK<> theirs.
Finally, you got it right. Dead on.
"There are new religions and religious ideas; I have
MK<> embraced one, they haven't. T hey're wrong and I'm right. Nyah,
MK<> nyah."
Yep. Including the Nyah's...
MK<> You're right -- same old song, same lack of reason and evidence
MK<> to back it up.
The Not Listening Fairy has visited us again, I see....
... Space is curved. Either that or my car pulls to the left.
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|From: STEVE KEMP
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictio
|Date: 14 Jan 01 22:33:00
EID:57c0 622eb420
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0746M2
MSGID: 1:275/311 7dfe5e22
TZUTC: -0500
RS>CJ> Do you really want to teach junior high kids that the universe
RS>CJ> came into being because Ptah jacked off?
RS>RS> I don't think that it should be done
RS>RS> in those words.
RS>GD> Why not?
RS> I think that the idea could be
RS>conveyed in a more tactful way.
Then couldn't the Bible have been written more tactfully as well?
After all it contains murder, kidnapping, abortion, etc. (WITH your
God's blessings and oft per "his" command) and all shorts of other
atrocities.
Or should the Bible NOT be given to children?
þ CMPQwk 1.42 18775 þ stevie.ray@coconutcomm.com
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|From: STEVE KEMP
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 22:39:00
EID:6364 622eb4e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0746M2
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RS> God is more than just conscience.
Got any evidence for that?
Or are you daring to speak for god?
Oh, by the way, and if I asked you for all of your money....
what would you do?
þ CMPQwk 1.42 18775 þ http://www.angelfire.com/ca/devilmusic
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Holy shit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 00:14:00
EID:f5d1 622f01c0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 552a0dc8
TZUTC: -0500
MG> RS> Also EVERY DAMM TIME I went to the theater, some asshole
MG> RS> just HAD to bring their younger than 3 year old brat.
MG> RS> Which usually screamed at 140 DB, or was constantly running
MG> RS> around and running up to Daddy and/or Mommy, "WHY? WHY?
MG> RS> WHAT? WHY?"
MG>The first time we took the kids to see the old Fantasia some hundred
MG>years ago or so, there was a four year old that wouldn't shut up in
MG>the front. After twenty minutes, the mother finally took the chold
MG>out of the theater so we could watch in peace. Used to be that
MG>theaters had "crying rooms" for noisy kids where parents could take
MG>them.
If it was up to me, I'd make it illegal to take any kids to the theater
that are under 4.
They're too stupid at that age to realize that there actually ARE people
there who want to watch the movie, not give the brat dirty looks.
MG> RS> No I haven't been to a theater since 1994.
MG>Almost beat you. Only once since then.
MG> RS> Besides, I just LUV being able to FF through the boring
MG> RS> parts.
MG>FF was invented by men to get to the "good parts". Mostly, where she
MG>takes her clothes off.
Heh heh, that too.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 00:27:00
EID:33f8 622f0360
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 01e89916
TZUTC: -0500
MG>.MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027b6
MG>.REPLY: 1:102/125.99 4a2bffed
MG> BN> I save the chicken fat for pie crusts. No, really. None
MG> BN> of that Crisco shit. Plain, unflavored rendered chicken fat
MG> BN> makes the _best_ pie crusts.
MG>Pot pies?
You bet!
Made with fresh chicken, garden vegetables, yummmmm!!!!!
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 15 Jan 01 00:35:00
EID:fcfa 622f0460
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 deefc2fe
TZUTC: -0500
MG> DM> Number One Son gave me a smapler pack of single-malts
MG> DM> for christmas, and we split 50 ccs of Talisker New Years
MG> DM> Eve (not terribly heavy comsumers): rich, smokey, and the
MG> DM> flavor lasts. I am saving up to get a whole bottle (it is a
MG> DM> tad pricey).
MG>Yes 'tis. This is often the case with rare and sought after things.
MG>A case of Wild turkey, on the other hand, can be had for a rag
MG>picker's wages.
MG>Enjoy.
This one political web site I go to once in a while is www.bartcop.com
"Bartcop" is particularly fond of tequila, one brand especially. (forgot
which one)
I actually tried tequila a few weeks ago, blech.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 15 Jan 01 00:42:00
EID:6177 622f0540
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 9b66c7a7
TZUTC: -0500
MG> ML>> Fuckin'-A, no shit. Next thing you know, he'll be
MG> ML>> washing it all down with Pabst Blue Ribbon...
MG>Reminds me of the famous baseball pitcher Mel Fame'. he got drunk
MG>one night on Pabst Blue Ribbon the day before pitching in a game with
MG>New York and blew it in the first inning by issuing walks to the
MG>first thirty two batters.
MG>After that, in new York, Pabst became known as "the beer that made
MG>Mel Fame' walk us."
Hee hee!
Good one!
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: John Wilson
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 01:38:00
EID:0d16 622f0cc0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62c4f8
-=> God Dan wrote to Robert Sayre <=-
RS> I love my sisters and brothers, but I
RS> wouldn't want to live with any of them. :^)
GD> Thus following the tenets of your god tha says you have to
GD> hate them.
Only if you take a saying emphasising contrasts with exaggeration
literally.
Sometimes you have to *think* about it.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Steve Kemp
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 02:05:02
EID:dda9 622f10a0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62cb4e
-=> Steve Kemp wrote to Robert Sayre <=-
SK> Here's an analogy....
SK> Let's say you believe that there is an invisible and untouchable
SK> apple on a table you and I are sitting at. An apple you only
SK> believe is there, one that even you can't see or touch.
Let's say you have a relative in Chicago, unseen, untouchable.
You believe she's in Chicago even though you can't see or touch her.
You tell me you can phone her and that's evidence. Why should I believe
you?
SK> Show that it exists or admit that it doesn't. OR admit that your
SK> belief is baseless at best.
Show me that God cannot exist or admit that you do not know.
You...you...agnostic!
SK> That isn't a case of demanding that you denounce apples.
Or relatives in Chicago...
SK> It's a case of you being required to demonstrate that your
SK> mystical apple exists....for if you can't do so, even to
SK> yourself, then it doesn't.
`even to yourself' ? Here we go into the unprovable inner experience
that allows one to say "I know" without evidence proof or theory,
nor even a conjecture as to why there is such a satisfactory
inwardly coherent `knowledge'; inexplicable, ineffable. Certain.
Not about the mystical apple, perhaps a worm within...(Aim low :-)
SK> Meaning there is no reason to believe it does.
A happy successful life means so many different things...
Reason is a function of intelligence, belief is a function of
emotion; separate, distinct: Trying to fit reason and belief
together is a hopeless misunderstanding.
SK> In short, it's a challenge.
No challenge at all. Or so easily met as to pose no difficulty at all.
Trying to communicate the answer to the challange is, I am begining
to believe, an impossible task: to transmit subjective individual
experience is not within science's reach and the thousands of books
written trying to explain/convince largely fail due to the
unwillingness to accept the author's `authority', or, as likely,
fraud.
You, for example, certainly would not accept *my* view
of the Way Things Work, rotten theist that I am....
Be Well.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Fundy lies
|Date: 15 Jan 01 02:58:04
EID:1fd2 622f1740
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62d7bc
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MK>> It was pointed
JW> MK<> out that we know many of the chemicals which cause the
JW> emotional
JW> MK<> responses we call "love."
JW> Which is not evidence. (many is not all, and the mechinism
JW> that ties the emotion with the brain that produces that
JW> `emotion' and to reduce love to those chemicals is to reduce
JW> the concept into a mechinical form that you, if you have
JW> experienced love, would not yourself accept.
MG> Here is where you go fundy on us. The dats is that love
MG> and other emotions are caused by chemicals.
And will, control, choice is totally absent? *Random* interactions
'twixt chemicals?
Whew!
MG> they are
MG> evidenced. I have their structures. I can provide you
MG> with mass spec analysis if you like of all of them that are
MG> known. yet you claim that this is not evidence and
MG> continue to claim that there is mroe to love than
MG> chemicals.
Accepting all of what you say as true, still as you admit; all of them
are not known...but that is beside the point. If we are but ephemerone-
directed animals, controled by chemical reactions and you are
satisfied that love is thus *explained* then it is my turn
to pity you, Marty. What little choice we have in the
world in this life is what makes us human. We *are*, for fleeting
moments, human.
For how things work, science
For why, poetry.
Or religion.
MG> Besides, whether they cause love or not is not important. they
MG> exist and they have evidence that they do exist, unlike a god of
MG> any description.
Wow. Your argument is on the level of saying that Gods must exist because
I can see His temples, observe thew worshipers, accept their testimony.
It wont work. Any more than your structures.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: holiday git
|Date: 15 Jan 01 03:04:06
EID:892c 622f1880
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62d926
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG>> ...I'm sure that somewhere, he might get
MG>> the thought from someone that he was being p[unished for
MG>> his atheism...
JW> In this kindly theist's opinion, those `theologians'
JW> should be whipped to death.
MG> Not really.
No, not really. That was an exaggeration, showing
displeasure. I do not advocate whipping people to death.
MG> Hate should not be banned, but it is not a
MG> very christian trait.
I don't believe I have ever experienced it.
MG> I doubt seriously that I'm wrong
MG> about the existance of a god, but if I am, I'll just let
MG> god deal with this little fellow.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 03:28:08
EID:2d64 622f1b80
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62dec8
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG> I think you have misunderstood. Deists of all stripes are the
MG> targets here.
I understand that. I don't mind being a "target".
MG You may try to show the mantle of reason, but this
MG> does not mean that you are just another deist with no evidence
MG> for his god.
I think you missed a "not" in your sentence.
MG> No matter how many times you readily admit tot
MG> his, it does nto change the fact.
Of *course* it dosn't! As I-readily-admit. Actually I *don't admit, I
*insist* that God is not evidence-able; If She were the evidence would be
a part of science which does not interface with religion. Nor does (my)
religion deny any fact, theory, or law of science.
JW> Y'know, not often but I sometimes think that the
JW> `worthwhileness' is true only for me; aiding me in being my
JW> charming, positive
MG> Background. All religion is a personal thing, so the
MG> worthiness of someone's articular brand of deism is not the
MG> question. Whether it is worthwhile to believe in any sort
MG> of god is on trial here.
It's not really a trial though, braying for evidence is not
a trial, and I've yet to read any atheist here who thinks it a trial,
just a place for scorn, contempt for views other than one's own,
and, weirdly, a place where
MG> ... We love to
MG> throw sticks and stones.
N.B.
Still interesting. Why one would be proud to disbelieve in anything is
new to me. Or to believe that atheism is somehow a superior view of the
universe, life. Neither Atheists *nor* Christians seem to rise above the
crowd when it comes to noble acts, industriousness, intelligence,
or any of those good qualities.
I am a marvelous human being not because of my religion and not
in spite of it. It is ironic that religion shouts "Be awake!" and
it puts many/most to sleep. Not really, most/damn near all
are in a state of waking-sleep anyway.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 03:40:10
EID:2d64 622f1d00
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62e19a
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG>> But you should. Rationality should be part of your life in
MG>> every aspect.
JW> Nonsense. There is art, music, love, poetry, friendship...
MG> There is rationality in all of the above.
Well sure. But they are more sensual than rational...
MG> there are plenty of
MG> masters of painting that painted precisly what they saw without a
MG> glimpse of their interpretation. totally rational.
And their style recognized a mile away...because those masters
did/do interpret what they see. Not totally rational at all.
Damn near all belong to a school or schools of art...
MG> Love
MG> and friendship is totally rational.
Wow.
MG> You cannot ever quit rational thought.
True enough, but you imply it always *rules*. History
or todays newspaper is evidence that this is not so.
JW> Having answers with regard to "God" is not rational:
JW> You have no answers either. No evidence for a dark matter
JW> galaxy does not imply that there is none.
MG> I do not recall you ever saying that.
Huh? Well, I just did.
MG> there are some
MG> unexplained questions about the Universe. Dark Matter is a
MG> theory. You might want to posit that "god" is just as good
MG> a theory
No, because that would bring God into the domain of science.
, but most scientists don't want to theorize god.
Many scientists believe in God.
MG> Every time int he past when a god is theorized to have
MG> caused something, it gets shown false. Never any evidence
MG> tht a god was involved.
Bad theories. Science and theology are full of 'em.
Be Well.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 04:05:12
EID:2d64 622f20a0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62e778
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG>> point is that religion of some form has been a major force
MG>> in your life...
JW> True..
MG>>, yet you have picked your god almost at random as well
MG>> as your belief system.
JW> Not true.
MG> A self admitted deist that has no evidence for a god in which he
MG> believes?
Exactly so.
MG> an admittedly important part of your life yet you have
MG> no evidence that your god is even around?
That is exactly so.
Some things can be internally convincing: I read a poem
that made me weep, it was so beautiful. Partially rational
but partly not. It's always a mixture. And the ratio is in flux.
MG> This is the lack of
MG> rationale that makes me wonder about deism.
It's possibly because you just cannot think about things that lie
beyond the scope of science. Or don't want to. Or don't believe that
anything *can* lie beyond science's scope.
An uproarious idea: that men nominally lead rational lives...
MG> ...if you are a bible
MG> literalist
And I am not.
MG> ... the literalist will
MG> often produce apologetics about how that passage doesn't
MG> really mean that or it was a passage added later, et al.
Not just the literalist, most biblical scholars depending on their field
go talmudic over every jot and tittle...
MG>> powerless to accomplsih good things without evil? The
MG>> writer of the passage has attributed to god his own
MG>> weakness.
JW> Yes. Not a singular instance.
MG> So the bible is not really divinely inspried but portrays
MG> gods and religion based on the human experience of the
MG> writers and no more?
Yes, with the possible exception of your last three words.
Some part are `God breathed' I think, but much is not only not but dull
and boring.
MG>> It still doesn't dound like much of a god.
Well, She dosn't really make a big effort to come up to
your expectations. She's glad you're learning stuff though...
:-)
... This tagline no verb.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 04:11:14
EID:2d64 622f2160
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62e8e2
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG> ...You see, you may believe in a
MG> very loving, kindly, limited god or whatever but if you are
MG> wrong you will pay.
Well, it falls under the "whatever" in your sentence above.
My religion dosn't include a payment Plan.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 04:16:16
EID:2d64 622f2200
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62ea10
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG> we may not be able to learn eveything before our the day
MG> comes when our time in the universe is
MG> up. But this is not that day.
I'll drink to that.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Wayne Chirnside
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 04:48:18
EID:29ab 622f2600
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62f192
-=> WAYNE CHIRNSIDE wrote to ROBERT SAYRE <=-
WC> What than are you doing in an atheist oriented echo than, go
WC> away
WC> if you don't want to be debunked.
I certainly don't speak for theists, but *I'm* here to see what the hell
you're up to :-)
And what your view of the universe is...
And why on earth do you think it's better'n mine! :-)
----------
RS> It is not for me to interfere,
WC> So shut up.
...And why atheists get so easily pissed off !
ML> But it's OK to be judgemental, condescending and arrogant?
ML> Nice set of values you got there, bucko.
Ah, so you DO think these are pejoritive terms. Interesting.
And applicable to Robert. Even more interesting.
ML> Let me ask you, what's your beliefs on atheism and atheists?
RS> I think that they're mistaken.
WC> We've evidence for our reasoned understanding of reality.
WC> What have you got, fairy tales.
When it comes to reality science still dosn't have a clue.
And philosophy hasn't come much closer than Plato.
Even Art has given it a go.
Scientific Americans current cosmology issue is a wonderful
reminder that when it really comes to understanding the Universe we
have some improbable theories and other than that we don't know diddily
squat. Hell, the Mystery Deepens.
Your faith in science is, however, touching.
I personaly am of the opinion that poetry probably comes closest.
And is quite possibly more ancient than prose...
How many dimentions are there. What lies within superstrings?
Dark mastter, black holes, gravitaton, consciousness! Theories abound
and some are so improbable they come close to conjuring up the
supernatural. (Yes, the key word as ML points out is `close' "almost".)
...and there just might be more than "fact" in myth...there just might be
wisdom. I say `might'. That I am so startlingly wise is not due to any
holy book or inspiration however, it's largly due to the fact that I'm old.
(This for those of you who have been asking themselves "How is it that he
is so startlingly wise?")
... Hey, *we* care. Now get off the &*^%#! line!
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 04:55:20
EID:54de 622f26e0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a62f338
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
JW>> And no, I wouldn't have you believe I'm a rational theist,
JW>> rational is a cold way of living a life....
MG>> It pays the bills.
JW> Well sure! And so does being an
JW>> Esoteric Christian, mystic, believer in Magick,
JW>> panentheist, old fart, whatever label you wish....
MG> Sometimes not. I see a lot of "god will provide a ram"
MG> rationale.
A different can of worms. Bad theology. Pitiful hope.
To teach/preach such is unforgivable.
MG> I am convinced that I am ultimately responsible
MG> for myself and my actions.
As am I.
MG> I need no god to do anything
MG> for me.
I believe this is true. Just being part of the thin film of life on this
planets surface is all that is needed.
Where in science does the concept "rejoice" reside?
Yeah, yeah, endorphins, sure...
Life's meaning purpose and enjoyment is found more in poetry than in
science...
Not that poetry is so primal but that science leaves such a Void.
Be Well.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously a great deal..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 06:01:22
EID:ca6f 622f3020
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a60fd9c
MSGID: 1:229/622 3a62941e
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.46.1 10440
DH>> ...Psychology doesn't define the
DH>> self as an entity that could be considered together or apart
DH>> from its environment.
JW> When you say "psychology" do you mean some, many, most or all,
JW> psychologists define the self suchly?
I mean psychology as opposed to anthropology, sociology, psychiatry, psychoanalysis
or mysticism. Psychology is the study of behaviour and cognition. It takes
all of the genome and phenome into account.
JW> Gurdjieff (*Eastern* psychology?) defines the self in a
JW> *very* interesting way. (Actually, he's not much into `defining'. He
JW> said "I have some good leather for those who wish to make shoes."
JW> IOW, practical applications for his system. (He disliked the word
JW> system, though everything he taught comes 'round to everything else
JW> he taught... And I'm just (still) a freshman student at this...
From what I can tell, his whole thesis is to produce a pragmatic definition
of self.
You'd be a perfect audience for Michael Shermer's latest effort, _How We
Believe_.
ISBN 0-7167-3561-X. A very well researched book. I'm not sure I concur with
his conclusions, but he's done a scholarly job of rounding up current evidence
and making observations.
JW> ... God is real, unless declared "integer".
JW> ___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
JW> -!- Maximus 3.01
JW> ! Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, B.C., Canada (1:153/7715)
JW>
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|From: Dave Hamilton
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 15 Jan 01 06:10:30
EID:69a6 622f3140
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a60ff7e
MSGID: 1:229/622 3a629517
CHRS: IBMPC 2
TID: FastEcho 1.46.1 10440
About a message of John Wilson to Jake Campbell:
Well, well, look who has stepped out of the shadows...
JC>> ... I am just a shade more theist than agnostic, which
JC>> could get me called a Fundy 'round here.
JW> ...and worse! :-)
Could happen.
--- FleetStreet 1.27.1
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 16:43:00
EID:791d 622e8560
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 60965937
TZUTC: -0500
JB> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
JB> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
JB> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose
JB> confidence. They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if
JB> they're lucky.
RS> You mean, like cold fusion?
Exactly like cold fusion. Those poor guys were reduced to the
physics department equivalent of cleaning cages in, quite
literally, months.
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 16:44:00
EID:791d 622e8580
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 fd41618e
TZUTC: -0500
SA> Why is it easier for you to believe that God has always
SA> existed than to say you just don't know what was there? The
SA> logical arguments in your statement are profound... the most
SA> straight forward being who/what created the creator?
RS> As I cannot find an end to the question "But, where did THAT
RS> come from", I have decided that there must be an ultimate
RS> origin. I call that ultimate origin God, because that's what
RS> I've been taught is what others have called it. I have seen
RS> nothing that makes me think that there was not an origin.
You have not demonstrated that you are equiped to "decide" anything
about the origin of the universe. Why is it so difficult to believe
that there might not BE a simple answer? The more you learn about
anything at all the more you realize that nothing is really simple.
You can't answer questions about the origin of the universe because
you have chosen not to acquire the necessary tools. So far, you
have merely accepted what others, equally empty handed, decide to
tell you.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 15 Jan 01 08:31:00
EID:9e7c 622f43e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 84311b79
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Cindy Haglund <=-
CH> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
RS> How could you possibly know this to be
RS> true or false?
It doesn't. It's as big an idiot as you are.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 08:32:00
EID:beef 622f4400
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 80a011e5
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting John Wilson to Judith Bandsma <=-
JW> I agree with this. (Does that lack of confidence include
JW> an immunologist talking about theology?)
Theology is NOT a science. No matter how much you try to portray it
as such.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Anybody not ice this
|Date: 15 Jan 01 08:33:00
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-=> Quoting John Wilson to Robert Sayre <=-
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS> requests...
JW> They never tire of it...
Present some and the requests will stop. Simple, isn't it?
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 08:34:00
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-=> Quoting John Wilson to Wayne Chirnside <=-
JW> When it comes to *lasting* the bible wins by a ratio of 12000:1 :-)
You seem to be ignoring texts MUCH older than the bible and from
which most of that document's stories were cribbed.
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 18:47:02
EID:6ffc 622d95e0
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On (12 Jan 01) Jake Campbell wrote to Cindy Haglund...
JC> Jan 11 12:19 01, Cindy Haglund wrote to GOD DAN:
CH> I believe Religion is wrong. It's ...unnatural....
JC> Then why is there so much of it? How is it any more wrong than
JC> masturbation?
It isn't. It just isn't near as much fun.
... Jesus must be in jail; that's where everyone seems to find him...
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:20:02
EID:15ce 622d9a80
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On (12 Jan 01) Jake Campbell wrote to John Wilson...
JC> I've been watching you present yourself for abuse for a month or so.
JC> I've been looking for an opportunity to jump in. I am just a shade
JC> more theist than agnostic, which could get me called a Fundy 'round
JC> here.
Hi, Jake! Well, I don't think anyone will call you a fundy if you
don't say something stupid. Put on your asbestos underwear and
hop in.
JC> Well, in for a penny...
...in for a pounding. Maybe. ;>
... Jesus. The same yesterday, today & forever. Dead.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:22:56
EID:6a41 622d9ac0
MSGID: 1:170/501 87560877
REPLY: 1:205/40 2485b57a
On (07 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Judith Bandsma...
JB> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
JB> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
JB> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose confidence.
JB> They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if they're lucky.
RS> You mean, like cold fusion?
Yes, Robert, -exactly- like that! Those 2 guys (I should remember
their names but I don't) tried to perpetrate a fraud and got caught
with their virtual pants down. That's how science works.
JB> Your religion will NEVER do any of these things. All they want
JB> is for you to believe with nothing to show you WHY you should
JB> believe.
RS> You talk about "your religion" as if it were
RS> a person or people, rather than a belief. *IT*
RS> is what I believe (much of it, anyway). THEY
RS> are people and fallible. Hopefully, THEY (as
RS> I) are trying to figure it all out, and to do
RS> "the right things".
Most people, whether they subscribe to a faith system or not, generally
try to do that. The difference appears to be that the ones who embrace
a religion that guarantees 'forgiveness' have traded conscience for
(imagined) security.
... "N" could be a vowel if enough people believed it.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:26:56
EID:6a41 622d9b40
MSGID: 1:170/501 4437fd3a
REPLY: 1:205/40 93e1d4e4
On (07 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Karl Schneider...
RS> But, I'll bet you don't. You just
RS> take it on faith that you could.
KS> And do you apply the same standard to your skepticism of
KS> evolution?
RS> I'm not sure what you're asking here.
RS> What I've been taught about evolution is
RS> that it is incomplete. I'm not overly
Well, that implies two different things, and you were correctly taught
on both issues: evolution is most assuredly not 'complete' since it
continues to operate, and our -understanding- of why and how it
operates is still lacking a few details.
RS> concerned with whether it is true or not,
RS> so I don't pursue it. I was just trying
RS> to say (though poorly) that none of these
RS> are absolutes.
Species come into and go out of existence all the time. That's what
evolution IS. You're a bright guy, and I have a tough time imagining
how you can't grasp that simple principle.
... A rooster clucks defiance -- but a lawyer....
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradicti
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:31:20
EID:f354 622d9be0
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On (07 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Curtis Johnson...
CJ> to the tomb of Jesus, when, and what did they see" etc.
RS> I believe the accounts I've read in the
RS> Bible, of people witnessing miracles.
Do you also believe the accounts of people who have got their
groceries bought by Elvis Presley in Kalamazoo?
CJ> Why those miracles instead of the miracles in the sacred
CJ> books of other religions?
RS> These are what I've been exposed to,
RS> so far. That's like asking me why I
RS> haven't read many different science
RS> texts.
Hooboy. Another Ken Young moment.
CJ> Science hangs together. Different religions don't.
CJ> Do you or don't you believe in the claims of miracles of
CJ> religions that don't believe in your God?
RS> I must claim ignorance. Perhaps
RS> situations could occur, where we
RS> are talking of the same God,
RS> without realizing it.
That's a bit farfetched, given the huge differences in attributes
accorded to the deities of different belief systems!
RS> I have had experiences that I believe
RS> reinforce much of what I've heard and read.
CJ> Most religionists of other religions also make that claim.
CJ> No response?
RS> What would you have me say? I would
RS> expect them to do so.
Not to speak for Curtis, but *I* would have expected you to say
something like 'well, they're wrong and I am right'. That's what
most if not all Christian fundies say.
CJ> Chaos, by definition, is the *absence* of something--an
CJ> ordering power. But randomicity can throw up order (the
CJ> proverbial example being monkeys at a typewriter that will
CJ> eventually produced something readable.)
RS> This does not address the issue of WHAT
RS> was in chaos. (I don't truely expect that
RS> monkeys with typewriters WILL produce a
RS> novel, regardless the amount of time
RS> available.)
But they will, eventually. Unless you're prepared to admit that
time will end at some point. See if you can find a book called
"1,2,3 - Infinity" by Georg Gamov.
CJ> The vacuum is capable of creating something. Read up on
CJ> physics and "quantum fluctuations," "virtual particle pairs,"
CJ> "Lamb shift," etc.
RS> Where did the energy come from?
From the 'matter' which is simply very concentrated energy.
CJ> Sad to say, there is considerable evidence against a
CJ> Creator who is both benevolent and omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
RS> I cannot agree, as I don't have
RS> enough knowledge of His "plans" and
RS> "thought processes" to say what His
RS> "actions" and "inactions" really mean,
That is a cowardly copout, Robert. You might as well just write "God
is an asshole but I'm gonna worship Her just in case."
CJ> One of my favorite examples is the Guinea worm, widespread ...
CJ> ... The only method was to split the tip of a stick, splash water
CJ> on the sore so that the egg-laying end of the GW would protrude,
CJ> and clamp the split end of the stick onto the end of the GW.
CJ> However, attempting to yank the GW out or even to roll it out all
CJ> at once would break the GW, which would then die and putrefy within
CJ> the patient. One had to slowly give the stick one twist a day.
CJ> What kind of a sick fuck would deliberately create something
CJ> like that?
RS> I must admit that I do not
RS> understand why.
Perhaps it's time you considered the obvious.
... I'm not afraid of Hell, I've been to Detroit.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:40:58
EID:6a41 622d9d00
MSGID: 1:170/501 a9e57a9b
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On (07 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Don Martin...
RS> Yet, she inferred that there IS
RS> evidence. That's the position that
RS> I wanted her to justify.
RS> If colored eggs are the evidence,
RS> religious artifacts are evidence,
RS> too.
Oh, man, this is TOO funny. Please think about what you wrote.
Please.
... Baptists don't screw standing up,it might lead to dancing
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 19:42:16
EID:451a 622d9d40
MSGID: 1:170/501 71da2805
REPLY: 1:205/40 39efb552
On (07 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Karl Schneider...
RS> "In His image" does not equal "exact replica".
KS> And that of course is the crux of the problem: What
KS> attributes ARE replicated, and which are NOT? By allowing
KS> any range of differences, you are effectively (very)
KS> promulgating a gap huge enough to 'explain away' any
KS> inconvenient contradictions.
RS> I don't know. The ability to know
RS> right from wrong and to choose
RS> between them would probably be two
RS> similarities. As I don't know, I
RS> must leave "a gap huge enough to
RS> 'explain away' any inconvenient
RS> contradictions".
Well, this isn't really going anywhere, so let me posit this:
According to Genesis, Adam and Eve were supposedly told by Yahweh
that they should not eat of the 'tree of knowledge'. Right?
(Some interpretations call it the 'tree' of 'knowledge and life'.
Whatever.)
So how exactly were they supposed to know what WAS 'right' or 'wrong'
unless they DID assimilate that knowledge?
Can you consider this long enough to realize how insipid the concept
is?
KS> as well claim to have an 'image' of an animal and it is that
KS> of a leopard, or a snail. Can't you see how ridiculous the
KS> idea is?
RS> Have you ever looked at a drawing
RS> made by a small child? :^)
Of course, but I've always heard that Bibles were written by literate
adults. However, you might have hit on something there...
RS> Seriously. We aren't an image, we
RS> are made in His image. I don't
RS> know that any one person more
RS> "closely approximates the original"
RS> than does another.
Well, I'm sorry, that doesn't make any sense to me.
RS> As for the differences and the similarities, I
RS> don't know. God can do anything. I cannot do as
He apparently either can't or won't ameliorate suffering of many of
those 'created' in 'his image'. I leave it to you to decide
whether that's a result of impotence, ignorance, or Sadism.
KS> That might be so. But as yet, there's no evidence that she
KS> HAS done anything. Sorry.
RS> You keep trying to equate us with God.
RS> You cannot. God is the creator; the
RS> designer. He can do no wrong, whether
RS> we understand it or not.
Well, he seems to have majorly fucked up with human 'design'. We're
far inferior to all other animals with the exceptions of opposable
thumbs (not unique) and the ability and desire to wreak havoc on
that which we were allegedly instructed to preserve.
KS> Believe it or not, I almost understand your mindset on this. God
KS> sends tornadoes to kill 100 people just to show everyone how much
KS> power he has. And the 2 who survive give thanks that they weren't.
KS> So everything is fine and dandy. That is the kind of shit that
KS> really gyrates my hormones.
RS> I don't know that this is not so.
RS> I sure hope it's not.
You don't live in tornado alley, I do. I see it every spring.
KS> Just out of curiosity, if you had the ability to create a
KS> universe, or even a colony of 'intelligent' life, would you
KS> fuck with them like your perceived deity has allegedly done?
KS> Yes or no will be fine.
RS> First, I don't claim to know why God
RS> does or does not do anything. I don't
RS> know that I can agree with "fuck with
RS> them". That being said:
RS> Being human, I might. I would hope to
RS> be stronger than that, but `til it
RS> happens, I really don't know.
You have just demonstrated that you have a far more moral claim on
deityhood that the one you seem to worship. Good for you. Is any of
this beginning to sink in?
RS> This question made me think of a kid
RS> watching ants. Ever mess with `em? ;^)
I have watched them, of course. I know people who pour gasoline on
them. I don't like that. I don't kill insects as a general rule,
unless they bite me. When a wasp gets inside the house, I will spend as
much time as necessary to get it into a glass and release it outside,
same with spiders, and I also don't kill anything else unless I want or
need to eat it. Many people consider me a 'tree hugger', and that
isn't all so far off the mark - but those folks are without exception
the same ones who profess (often with obtrusive emphasis) their
'Christianity', and seem to have forgotten their 'commission' to be
'stewards of the Earth'. Pfaugh. I fart in their general direction.
... Do racing drivers have grand prix?
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: OBVIOUSLY NUTHIN' MUCH..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 20:07:26
EID:451a 622da0e0
MSGID: 1:170/501 95449857
REPLY: 1:205/40 35b3149a
On (07 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Karl Schneider...
KS> Maybe it needs to be put a little simpler: What 'bad stuff' has
KS> 'he' stopped (per your claim) and even more interestingly, how do
KS> you know? Please think about how absurd your position here is!
RS> I think you are assuming that I
RS> know of "bad stuff" that was stopped
RS> before it started. I made no such
RS> claim. I only asked how someone
RS> would know, had that happened.
I'm only assuming that you believe what you said, Robert. You wrote,
flat out, that 'He has stopped some bad stuff". As to how 'someone
would know', that was MY question!
RS> I said that He has stopped some
RS> "bad stuff".
Ah. See above.
RS> Many stories in the Bible tell of God
RS> stopping some "bad stuff" directly.
RS> (Parting of the Red Sea, etc.)
Sure. And others tell of 'swimming' iron axes, the Sun "stopping" in
it's tracks, an impossible worldwide flood and other farragoes of
mythological detritus.
RS> I have donated food and used
RS> clothes, purchased new clothes, school
RS> supplies, etc. for less fortunates
RS> because of my belief in Him. This is
RS> God stopping some "bad stuff"
RS> indirectly.
Well, whoopie do. I have for years done, and still do, the same things
with NO belief in 'Him'. Are you actually under some delusion that
faith in an unevidenced deity is a prerequisite for charitable deeds?
RS> You can't have good without bad. You RS>
can't choose good over evil, if there RS> is no evil.
KS> Nobody ever has chosen evil over good. The
KS> concepts are 100% subjective.
RS> Because they are subjective they
RS> cannot be chosen?
No, the question is whether something is intrinsically 'good' or
'evil'. You need to read your bible, there are many examples of what
any sane person would consider 'evil' that were either ordained,
ordered, suggested or supported by the deity whose ass you kiss.
READ the thing!
RS> I have chosen evil over good at
RS> times. I'm not proud of it, but
RS> I have done it.
So has everyone else who ever lived. I think about some of the things
I've done to hurt others often. Wish I hadn't done them. But I
accept the responsibility for them and don't fall back on a simplistic
'way out' like typical 'christians' do. That's to say, I don't EXPECT
to be 'forgiven'...I just remember them and try to do better. Seems
like a more responsible way to live.
KS> If a Capitalist makes a profit (something, by the
KS> way, objected to by the icon of your faith), it results in a
KS> loss by someone else. There is a 'good', from the seller's view
KS> and an 'evil' (loss) to the purchaser. It isn't a completely
KS> equitable transaction. You really ought to read about what Jesus
KS> had to say about it.
RS> I disagree that a profit requires a
RS> loss. And I'm not talking about a
RS> spiritual profit, either.
I see you still haven't read your Bible re: profit. Try again.
RS> I know the idea of the rich man,
RS> camel, and needle eye. And the story
RS> of selling doves, etc. at the temple.
RS> Are you talking about something else?
Well, it looks like we're down to the nitty gritty. I hereby request
you give me all your money. Will you accede to my request, per the
instructions of Jesus?...or will you weasel out? Your choice!
... I can carry 2 cups of coffee &8 donuts at the nudist camp
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 13 Jan 01 20:21:04
EID:4311 622da2a0
MSGID: 1:170/501 9c1295ba
REPLY: 1:205/40 3732b34c
On (08 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Karl Schneider...
RS> I understand this idea; but, wouldn't you expect more
RS> creatures that are between man and chimp, ape, monkey, or
RS> whatever? I mean, there are so many different types of man,
RS> yet not much of anything man-like yet also "monkey"-like.
RS> Wouldn't you expect a "bigfoot" or something?
SS> How many "types of man" are there? I am unaware of any but
SS> the one commonly known as the human race.
RS> I tried to say it in a way that
RS> someone would not make a smart
RS> remark about different races of
RS> man, rather than to answer the
RS> question.
KS> Sally didn't say anything about 'races of man',...
RS> Sally didn't say anything at all
RS> before the above quoted lines. Would
RS> you have been happier had I typed:
RS> so many different colors of man?
I left the entire message intact, even though it wastes a bit of
bandwidth. Look up above where quotes begin with SS>.
... Gross National Product: A Big Mac.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Still don't get "free
|Date: 13 Jan 01 20:23:14
EID:9b25 622da2e0
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On (10 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Don Martin...
RS> Just a WAG, but, might God be bored if He just
RS> made everything do exactly as He wanted?
DM> Just an observation from logical consequences, but is it
DM> _possible_ for an omniscient and omnipotent being to make
DM> everything any _other_ way than exactly as it wanted?
RS> No. But, why couldn't He make beings
RS> that could make their own choices?
How could a 'created' being make a 'choice' that wouldn't comply with
what was already "known"?
... Learning is the mother of knowledge, curiosity its father
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 13 Jan 01 20:37:58
EID:451a 622da4a0
MSGID: 1:170/501 185cd25a
REPLY: 1:205/40 c08dd2e8
On (12 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Marty Leipzig...
ML> Still you commit the sin of hubris asking your God to
ML> change His plans to suit YOU.
ML> And you find nothing, ever so tiny bit, disquieting about that?
RS> It's what He's told us to do.
Uh, hold on a minute: You're saying that God has 'told' us to give
HIM advise on how to conduct the affairs of the universe? Are you sure
you mean to imply that?
RS> All
RS> that He requires is that we choose
RS> Him.
ML> Why is it that an omnipotent, omniscient God NEEDS anything?
ML> Particularly from mere mortals?
RS> I don't know that He does. Perhaps
RS> "wants" would be more correct.
You know, Robert, you're sort of painting yourself into a corner here:
If an omnipotent deity "wants" something, just what would prevent her
from getting it....eternally, even?
ML> I did, and you STILL have not explained why you're so damned
ML> special that God'll change His cosmic plans for your determined
ML> pleading.
RS> I don't know why you and I are so
RS> special.
Well, I guess that puts paid the 'no sparrow falls...' crap.
ML> Luckily, many other folks prefer action to the sort of
ML> weird supplication (and ululation) you seem to prefer.
RS> What action do they take when someone
RS> is about to die, that believers do not?
Not to put any words in Marty's mouth (keyboard), but the obvious
answer seems to be: Shit happens, but application of modern medicine
and science might prolong a viable existence. On the news tonight,
they told about Ronnie Raygun who fell down in his house. The hospital
bill will be in the $100000 range. And for what? To keep a body with
no brain alive? He has millions of fundy supporters, how come their
prayers aren't enough to fix him up?
RS> I work in a Catholic hospital. We do
RS> much more than just pray. Besides,
RS> what's wrong with saying "it'll be
RS> all right, in the next life" if it
RS> gives comfort?
Why, if prayer 'works', is anything more necessary?
ML> Prove me wrong. Give me a list of Christian Scientist EMS'.
RS> What do Christian Scientists have to
RS> do with this?
Groan.
RS> Why do you insinuate prayer disallows
RS> any other actions? Prayer is in addition
RS> to those actions.
KS> The ultimate manifestation of such a mindset is when
KS> 'pious' folks won't take a sick kid to a doctor. GOD
KS> DAMN, that shit makes me really mad.
ML> Hey, it's God's will. There you go again, knowing better
ML> than the deity you worship.
RS> Now, you're talking something completely
RS> different, IMO. I could never do this. I
RS> can't see how this belief comes from
RS> Christianity. This seems (to me) to be
RS> following the wrong path, so to speak.
Of course it is. People of 'faith' will depend on it up to a point.
When it doesn't work, they (usually) rely on what DOES work. Doctors.
Medicine. That sort of stuff.
... Half the people in the world are stupider than average.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 14 Jan 01 09:39:00
EID:0283 622e4ce0
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a61ba04
Robert Sayre said "Biblical contradictions" to Don Martin, adding:
RS> It is they that keep crying to provide
RS> evidence, and they that demand that I
RS> denounce God.
DM> Bullshit. Provide some real evidence for any god
DM> here and you'll see all sorts of WOAs converting on the
DM> spot. Who _demands_ that you denounce god? Name that
DM> person and give the quote. Personally, I don't give
DM> much of a shit one way or another _what_ you do with
DM> your imaginary superfriend, so long as you do not
DM> expect my support in your doing it.
SM>> Either come up with evidence we will accept, Robert,
SM>> or admit that your God does not exist, never has
SM>> existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
RS> Here's the quote that tells me to
RS> denounce God. It was in one of your
RS> replies to me (though, I realize
RS> that you did not make the demand).
RS> Thanks. I couldn't have sent it
RS> without you (or someone else)
RS> posting it again. I still couldn't
RS> tell you the name of the poster.
Sean Mccullough is always saying stuff like this and the
"SM" initials match. He does not, however, tell you to
_de_nounce god; he tells you to _re_nounce god if you have
no evidence. There is a difference. The first is an insult
or curse ("God behaves like a rancid turd, apparently never
washes under the arms, and his mother dresses him funny"
would be this sort of denunciation) or a formal, public
charge of malfeasance ("God has been spying for the Russians
for decades" uttered before the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee would be that sort).
A renunciation is a formal declaration that one no
longer subscribe to some particular set of beliefs. One can
renounce, say, the Republican Party without necessarily
denouncing it.
Notice that a denunciation assumes the existence of the
thing denounced: insulting or bringing formal charges
against the non-existent is silly at best; at worst it would
lead others to doubt one's sanity. This is why WOAs tend to
denounce god conditionally, inserting something to the
effect of "_IF_ such a being exists" before going on to
observe that this being's behavior appropriately deserves
condemnation.
Now that your vocabulary is improved, pray tell us who
_demands_ that you denounce god? Name that person and give
the quote.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Dark Shadows
|Date: 14 Jan 01 09:40:02
EID:3fbf 622e4d00
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a61ba42
Mark Kimes said "Dark Shadows" to Steve Kemp, adding:
MK> Now, how about you settle down before I slap a light
MK> cone on your ass? :-)
AAAIIIIEEEE! Not the light cone! _Any_thing but the
light cone!
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Claim of ignorance
|Date: 14 Jan 01 09:41:04
EID:3fe4 622e4d20
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a61ba80
Robert Sayre said "Biblical contradicti" to Curtis Johnson, adding:
CJ> Why those miracles instead of the miracles in the sacred
CJ> books of other religions?
RS> These are what I've been exposed to,
RS> so far. That's like asking me why I
RS> haven't read many different science
RS> texts.
CJ> Science hangs together. Different religions don't.
CJ> Do you or don't you believe in the claims of miracles of
CJ> religions that don't believe in your God?
RS> I must claim ignorance.
Never mind the fact that in the face of regular
demonstrations, such claims are superfluous.
But on the bright side, nobody will ask him for evidence
of _this_ one.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Maximizing Time
|Date: 14 Jan 01 09:42:06
EID:286d 622e4d40
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a61babe
Robert Sayre said "Still don't get "free" to Don Martin, adding:
I have seen you assert that you have insufficient time
to do any substantial reading in the area of knowledge where
you repeatedly show yourself to be woefully deficient. You
have claimed that this echo alone takes up great chunks of
you time.
In general, you do not have to answer every post
directed at you: nobody else does that. In this packet, you
even answer one of mine _twice_, pissing and moaning about
our nasty treatement of you in one, and triumphantly
demonstrating your ignorance of the language you insist upon
using (denounce/renounce) in another. You could have saved
your breath both times and come off rather better.
In particular, you _really_ don't have to answer
rhetorical questions, especially those so identified and
where the writers thereof have explicitly informed you that
they do not expect a reply.
And if, in addition to time, you wish to save any few
tatters of any reputation you might possess as a sentient
being, do _not_ answer rhetorical questions with questions
even more fatuous than the one that drew the rhetorical
question in the first place.
Go use the time you'll save by reading up on the logical
consequences of omnipotence and starting a course of serious
drinking to forget that you ever uttered the inanity: "No.
But, why couldn't He make beings that could make their own
choices?"
RS> Just a WAG, but, might God be bored if He just
RS> made everything do exactly as He wanted?
DM> Just an observation from logical consequences, but is it
DM> _possible_ for an omniscient and omnipotent being to make
DM> everything any _other_ way than exactly as it wanted?
RS> No. But, why couldn't He make beings
RS> that could make their own choices?
DM> This is a rhetorical question, one for which an answer
DM> is not required. If you don't "get it", please go read
DM> and learn rather than replying.
RS> TTYL.
You just don't get it, do you? I must warn you that I
know where to get a light cone and an operator who is not
afraid to use it.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
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|From: Don Martin
|To: All
|Sub: Assholes in Foxholes
|Date: 14 Jan 01 09:43:08
EID:cad2 622e4d60
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a61bafc
Tim Richardson50 said "Foxholes" to Cindy Haglund, adding:
CH>Atheists don't believe in killing people.
TR> Adolf Hitler Josef Stalin
TR> Martin Bormann Lavrenti Beria
TR> Hermann Goering Yuri Andropov
TR> Josef Goebbels Mao tse Tung
TR> Hans Frank Ho Chi Minh
TR> Heinrich Himmler Benito Mussolini
TR> Rudolf Hoess
TR> Adolf Eichmann
TR> Josef Mengele
TR> Rheinhardt Heydrich
TR> SS general Heigelein
TR> Julius Streicher
TR> Erich Koch
TR> Ilsa Koch
TR> Kaltenbrunner
TR> Tim Richardson
Did anyone else find this list of nasty people (most of
whom are confirmed Catholics) interesting?
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: SALLY SPRINGETT
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 14:23:00
EID:a539 622f72e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 8d7e4239
TZUTC: -0500
SS> JB> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
SS> JB> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
SS> JB> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose
SS> JB> confidence. They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if
SS> JB> they're lucky.
SS> RS> You mean, like cold fusion?
SS>Exactly like cold fusion. Those poor guys were reduced to the
SS>physics department equivalent of cleaning cages in, quite
SS>literally, months.
Actually, Fleishmann and Pons are still claiming their "cold fusion"
works, and they are currently doing "research" and claiming more
"results" from this private lab they suckered into letting them work at.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 14 Jan 01 17:43:07
EID:efbc 622e8d60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a61e52b
-> On 12 Jan 01 18:07:02, John Wilson got back to God Dan
GD> Scientists correct there mistakes. Theologians have their view
GD> cut in stone.
GD> Try making the connection.
JW> Oh, please. Try a few Issues of New Testament abstracts. Or even
GD> Has it ever occured to you that I have?
JW> Yes, but not from your statement above.
So, tell me why you are still worshipping a dead hippy on a stick?
... "It is Written." Translation: "It is rotten."
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|From: God Dan
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: A really sick joke
|Date: 14 Jan 01 18:11:03
EID:e7d6 622e9160
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a61ebb7
-> On 13 Jan 01 06:13:56, Martin Goldberg got back to Blanche Nonken
Beware, as the Ed Mills Mode is on full force right now.
BN> A friend has highly recommended the new art film "Quill."
MG> I've not heard of this epic.
BN>
MG> Uh, oh.....
MG> I recall yoko Ono's great Opus called "Smile" which fetured 8 hours
of
MG> Joun Lennon smiling.
Do you know what Yoko Ono and Ethopians have in common?
They both live off of dead Beatles.
If you got that far, you were warned!
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|From: Elizabeth McGuire
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: homosexuality
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:25:08
EID:6a03 622f6320
MSGID: 1:261/1010 3A63340F
PID: WWIV BBS v. 424
TID: WWIVTOSS v. 1.40
The verses that are used to say homosexuality is a sin are:
*Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for
even their women did change the naturall use into that which is against
nature: And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman,
burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which
is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense in error which
was meet."
Also: Leviticus 18:22, 18:29; 1 Kings 14:24
--- WWIVToss v.1.40 Unregistered [27 days run!]
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|From: Elizabeth McGuire
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: regarding...
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:29:34
EID:76e8 622f63a0
MSGID: 1:261/1010 3A633410
PID: WWIV BBS v. 424
TID: WWIVTOSS v. 1.40
That last message was in response to you asking someone for biblical "evidence"
that homosexuality is a sin. I didn't have enough lines to say so, memory
on computer is too low.
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|From: God Dan
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 23:11:19
EID:9519 622fb960
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a638397
-> On 13 Jan 01 06:08:48, Martin Goldberg got back to God Dan
MG>> I get paid for trying to explain away the mysteries of
MG>> life. Why do these stop at religion and god? Why would the
MG>> Pope ask Stephen Hawking not to investigate the universe
MG>> before the Big Bang?
GD> Sounds like a conflict of income to me...
MG> Gnaw. I smell fear.
That could be senility. El Papo is not doing too well these days.
... If only more christians read their bibles there'd be less christians.
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: CURTIS JOHNSON
|Sub: here's one for you
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:37:00
EID:d8d2 622f94a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 86d8603f
TZUTC: -0500
Curtis, if you can get to this site, it may give you a chuckle.
http://www.trf.org.au/sunlttr.htm
That's the page for the 'scientific proof of the bible' from its
numbers.
Take off everything after the last / and you will find such things
as 'proof' that Mark 16 is not a fake, etc.
This is the type of stuff you do well with.
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ALL
|Sub: FUNDY ALERT!!!
|Date: 16 Jan 01 00:21:00
EID:678c 623002a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 1a143930
TZUTC: -0500
This was from Elizabeth McGuire, the resident female fundy in Politics:
EM>The verses that are used to say homosexuality is a sin are:
EM>*Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile
EM>affections: for even their women did change the naturall use into
EM>that which is against nature: And likewise also the men leaving the
EM>natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another;
EM>men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in
EM>themselves that recompense in error which was meet." Also: Leviticus
EM>18:22, 18:29; 1 Kings 14:24
Any of you want to tear at this fresh meat, before I do?
I can't bite due to a loose partial.
Guess what, Liz.
These same areas of the Bible also say that if YOU were raped, you would
have to marry your rapist, that kids who get uppity should be stoned to
death, and that having slaves is JUST fine.
Not only that, there are plenty of other "sins" in those chapters that
nowadays are simply laughable, at best.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Fundy news (hork!)
|Date: 16 Jan 01 00:23:00
EID:0fca 623002e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 f062f1c3
TZUTC: -0500
FOF’s Dobson Says Ministry Under Attack By Satanic Forces
Focus on the Family leader James C. Dobson has charged that Satan is
attacking his organization, in the wake of two highly publicized sex
scandals that have rocked the Colorado Springs-based radio ministry.
FOF’s 1,350 employees joined hands and circled the ministry for prayer
Nov. 3, seeking "corporate repentance and confession," according to an
Associated Press report.
The ministry is reeling from recent revelations concerning two prominent
staffers. On Oct. 11, Mike Trout, an FOF senior vice president and co-
host of radio broadcasts with Dobson, resigned after admitting to an
extramarital affair. In late September, John Paulk, a self-proclaimed
"ex-gay" who works with Focus to persuade homosexuals to go straight and
adopt fundamentalist Christianity, was caught in a gay bar in
Washington, D.C.
Dobson seems to believe that outside forces are responsible for the
moral failings of some of his staff. "Satan has thrown just about
everything in his arsenal at us in the last several weeks as you know,"
Dobson told FOF employees in a recorded message. "I am certain those who
hate our cause are doing everything they can to undermine and to
discredit it."
H.B. London Jr., an FOF vice president, told the AP, "We feel a need for
corporate repentance and confession. We’ve been wounded by some of the
recent events here. We’re trying to cleanse ourselves and humble
ourselves before the Lord."
Trout, who has been married for 31 years and has three grown daughters,
called his affair "not a long-term thing" and said the woman involved
was not a Focus employee. "I’m greatly saddened," Trout said. "I didn’t
work at Focus on the Family for 19 years because of the paycheck or the
benefits or the positive environment. I worked at Focus on the Family
because I believed in what we were doing. I know that might sound
strange, because I violated it."
While Trout resigned, Paulk has been allowed to keep his job. Paulk was
spotted Sept. 18 in a bar called Mr. P’s in a heavily gay neighborhood
in Washington. Paulk was recognized by Daryl Herschaft, a staffer with
the Human Rights Campaign, a group that promotes gay rights. Herschaft
called Wayne Besen, another HRC employee, who went to the bar and
confronted Paulk.
"I asked him if he was gay," Herschaft told Southern Voice, a gay
newspaper, "And he said yes." Herschaft said Paulk had introduced
himself merely as John. Herschaft said he asked Paulk his last name and
said, "He said his last name was ‘Clint,’ but he wanted to know why I
was asking. He became evasive, but he was good at it. He was very calm."
Shortly after that, Besen arrived and said he immediately recognized
Paulk. "I was floored," he told Southern Voice.
Paulk later insisted he had entered the bar only to use the bathroom. "I
was walking around DuPont [Circle] and I needed to use the bathroom, so
I walked in," he told the paper. "But I didn’t know Mr. P’s was a gay
bar. Once I was inside I thought, ‘Oh, this is a gay bar, and I probably
shouldn’t be in here.’"
Besen was skeptical of the story. Noting that Paulk had offered to buy
Herschaft a drink, Besen remarked, "I didn’t know using the bathroom
involved 40 minutes of socializing in a bar and offering drinks to
strangers."
In other news about the Religious Right:
Texas Religious Right activist Steven Hotze has been charged with
driving while intoxicated, Houston police said. Hotze, founder and major
financial backer of a number of ultra-conservative political
organizations in Texas, was stopped by police at 1:25 a.m. Oct. 26 after
officers spotted his car weaving across the center line of Houston’s
Memorial Drive. He refused to take a breath test but failed a field
sobriety test. Hotze, who has denied that he was intoxicated, was booked
but posted $500 bond and was released.
In a 1990 essay published in the Houston Chronicle, Hotze wrote that
government often makes laws to impose moral and religious codes on
citizens. He argued that examples include laws against "drunken driving,
theft, murder, slander and perjury."
Florida Gov. Jeb Bush has restored Watergate figure Charles Colson’s
right to vote, practice law and serve on juries, rights Colson lost
after being convicted of a felony for obstruction of justice and serving
seven months in a federal prison in 1975.
While in prison, Colson became a born-again Christian and after his
release founded Prison Fellowship. He has also become involved in right-
wing politics.
"He certainly has served his time," Bush said. "The crime that he
committed was a serious one, but I think it’s time to move on. I know
him. He’s a great guy, he’s a great Floridian."
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: DON MARTIN
|Sub: Assholes in Foxholes
|Date: 16 Jan 01 06:25:00
EID:96f4 62303320
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 0d97ac9e
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Don Martin to All <=-
TR> Tim Richardson
DM> Did anyone else find this list of nasty people (most of
DM> whom are confirmed Catholics) interesting?
Yep. Especially that last name included.
But then, we knew that, didn't we?
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: ROSS SAUER
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 06:26:00
EID:fbc7 62303340
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 17c7aa1c
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Ross Sauer to Sally Springett <=-
RS> Actually, Fleishmann and Pons are still claiming their "cold fusion"
RS> works, and they are currently doing "research" and claiming more
RS> "results" from this private lab they suckered into letting them work
RS> at.
Betcha the owners of the lab are religionists. I seriously doubt anybody
else would be that gullible.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 23:41:00
EID:0d16 622fbd20
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a63fb0c
-=> God Dan wrote to John Wilson <=-
JW> Oh, please. Try a few Issues of New Testament abstracts. Or even
GD> Has it ever occured to you that I have?
JW> Yes, but not from your statement above.
GD> So, tell me why you are still worshipping a dead hippy on a
GD> stick?
I have a great deal of respect for that poor peasent of palestine:
he must have had a hell of an impact on those he taught, as well
as the crowds.
I have the belief that anyone who will die rather than abandon his
beliefs, dies on sacred ground.
Revere, rather than worship.
___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Thanks again
|Date: 15 Jan 01 16:25:08
EID:3ffa 622f8320
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 1:170/501 c631deb4
REPLY: 1:18/140 3362ee37
On (13 Jan 01) JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER...
-=> Quoting Karl Schneider to Wayne Chirnside <=-
WC> Maybe science ought to look at putting this enzyme
WC> into people toothpaste.
KS> I suspect the enzymes are secondary to the abrasive action, but,
KS> hell... whatever works! '>
JB> It's not an enzyme that is in the necks themselves, it's an enzyme
JB> released when the dog eats any type of raw meat. The combination of
JB> the enzyme and the abrasion are what works so well.
Oh....I see.
... Fundies - slugs in the garden of life.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: All
|Sub: Holy fucking shit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:29:36
EID:c217 622f93a0
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 1:170/501 de3b7980
Look at this comment from one of the FTB morons from another echo:
C > RS> On 01-07-01, CENTURION said to VERN HUMPHREY:
C > Radioactivity is a chemical characteristic. Change the chemistry of
the
waste and you no longer have radioactive waste.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And this is one of the guys who sucks Stan H's cock for complaining
'there are no smart liberals'.
Jesusfuckingchrist.
... Fundy brain: Opposite of a black hole: Nothing can get in.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:40:00
EID:ba7f 622f9500
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a638a50
Karl Schneider said "Biblical contradictions" to Robert Sayre, adding:
RS> Yet, she inferred that there IS
RS> evidence. That's the position that
RS> I wanted her to justify.
RS> If colored eggs are the evidence,
RS> religious artifacts are evidence,
RS> too.
KS> Oh, man, this is TOO funny. Please think about what you wrote.
KS> Please.
Mr. "Connect _WHAT_ dots?" actually _think_ about what
he has written? You are almost funnier than he is.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Elizabeth Mcguire
|Sub: regarding...
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:41:02
EID:12c8 622f9520
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a638a8e
Elizabeth Mcguire said "regarding..." to Ross Sauer, adding:
EM> That last message was in response to you asking someone for
EM> biblical "evidence" that homosexuality is a sin. I didn't
EM> have enough lines to say so, memory on computer is too low.
Low memory? Aah, _that_ would explain your lack of
response to my message of December 29--it was rather long
and perhaps your computer could not receive it. In hopes
that your memory problem is resolved, her 'tis again. (By
the way, the interest is mounting even as I type.) The above
non-post does not, incidentally, support your assertion
referred to below, but perhaps you'll get better.
Elizabeth Mcguire said "Another brainless fun" to Don Martin, adding:
EM> Of course, a lot of people would say that, in
EM> interacting with the universe, God has left evidence
EM> behind. Look around you. Granted, there are a lot of
EM> theories for how all this was made, it could be said
EM> that the very fact that we exist shows that God does
EM> interact with the universe.
DM> Such as thing _could_ be said, and indeed _has_ been
DM> said right here on this echo, but never by anyone
DM> capable of thought beyond the fourth-grade level. Is
DM> there any particular reason for your now suggesting
DM> that it _might_ be said?
EM> Well, to start, I'm pretty sure that I'm capable of
EM> thought beyond a fourth-grade level. Just wanted to
EM> establish that first.
Something you did not do with your first post; whether
you confirm that assertion in what follows remains to be
seen.
EM> The reason I'm suggesting it might be said is that I
EM> believe there are tons of things that couldn't have
EM> happened without God.
That is your belief, and you are certainly welcome to
rejoice in it as a belief. The fact that no evidence has so
far been produced in its support has not, to date, deterred
yourself or billions of others from so rejoicing in this or
countless other similar notions.
EM> Not to mention that we can't say we know God doesn't
EM> exist without first claiming omniscience.
EM> So you can't prove there isn't a God.
It would seem to me that it is _your_ task to furnish
evidence for the existence of omniscience before attempting
to foist it off upon others--certainly, I have never claimed
such a thing; apart from this diversion, your claim is
nothing more than the fallacy of the appeal to negative
evidence; the standard response to this well-worn fraud
here is:
YIPPIE! A request to prove a negative! It's time
somebody helped out the local economy:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Promissory Note
I, Elizabeth Mcguire, hereby promise to pay to
Bearer on or before December 29, 2000, the sum of
Five Million, Four Hundred and Thirty Eight
Thousand, Seven Hundred Ninety-Four Dollars and
Forty-Three Cents ($5,438,794.43) in legal tender of
the United States of America. In the event that I
should fail to pay this sum by December 29, 2000, I
agree to be held liable for interest at the rate of
15% per annum, plus a penalty of 35% per annum, both
to be compounded daily. In the event that I am able
to provide evidence that this note does not exist,
all debts herein specified, principal and interest,
shall be voided.
Elizabeth Mcguire (s)
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Employing fallacies in your argument is not evidence of
thought beyond a fourth-grade level.
EM> But back on topic, I bring it up because I believe in
EM> God.
That is abundantly clear. So long as you confine your
beliefs to yourself and not insist that they be shared by
others, more power to you.
EM> My questions for you are these: Would you explain why
EM> you don't believe there is a God?
I have never seen any verifiable evidence for any
supernatural being, and I do not choose to "believe" in
things the existence of which is in question.
EM> And why do athiests and the like complain about fundies
EM> being rude and talking down to them, then act the same
EM> way if not worse?
Have _I_ made this complaint? I make no bones about
being insulting to stupid people, personally, and I actually
_enjoy_ a ripe fundy being rude and talking down to me,
because I am usually capable of being a great deal more
insulting to him than he is to me (occasionally, I even
manage the greatest insult of them all--the one in which the
target remains unaware that there has even _been_ an insult,
while everyone else enjoys a merry laugh). But this is my
personal preference only, and I cannot speak for atheists in
general. Would you be so kind as to _name_ an atheist who
has behaved as you say above? Once you have done that, the
appropriate course to take would be to ask _him_ (but I
really rather doubt that you have anyone specific in mind,
but are dealing instead with generalities from your
imaginings).
Employing sweeping generalizations about unnamed
atheists (or, for that matter about unnamed fundies:
Christopher Celebrese was pretty insulting and stupid by way
of one particular example--I am not sure whether I have the
spelling right, but should you wish his most notorious
quote, I shall dig it up along with that spelling) in your
argument is not evidence of thought beyond a fourth-grade
level.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 08:43:00
EID:3912 62304560
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 52120fa0
TZUTC: -0500
RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and sinning
RS> against God?"
RS> I don't know of any animals having homosexual sex; but, to sin
RS> requires the knowledge that it IS a sin, and a CHOICE to
RS> commit that sin. Animals are incapable of sin.
So you annoint a human being to define homosexuality as a "sin,"
even though it should be clear to the meanest intelligence that no
one would purposely set himself apart in that way if he had a
choice, and force guilt and shame on those who behave in a way that
is, for them, normal. Nice work if you can get it.
Animals can't sin because it's impossible for those inclined to make
animals feel guilty and nasty for failing to live their lives as
celibates. It's much more fun to make humans suffer for their
inability to control their natures.
It's easy to see why they call the kind of argument that explains
the crueler workings of unreason "apologetics."
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 08:44:00
EID:3912 62304580
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 cfc53719
TZUTC: -0500
SA> So, what would happen if your daughter or son would bring a
SA> same-sex partner home to meet you? It could happen if you
SA> have children.
RS> My son brought home a girl of another race. We were not
RS> comfortable with the situation, and we told him why. We told
RS> him that we would support him, regardless of his choices.
That's nice. Laying guilt must really be fun. I wish I had the
trick but my mother didn't know how to do it so I failed to learn
it at her knee.
Could you explain precisely _why_ you "felt uncomfortable with the
situation"? I would be genuinely interested in knowing how anyone,
particularly one who claims to be a Christian, would define this
discomfort -- much less speak of it casually as though it were the
a normal and reasonable response.
(It would probably be a good idea to explain that I'm not a teenager
who has no idea what it is to be a parent, my kids are in their 30s.
A couple of people here have met my son who has spent the last ten
years helping to make life easier for people for whom discomfort is
a word with real meaning.)
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 07:42:00
EID:ef6c 62303d40
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 abe20b48
TZUTC: -0500
-=> JUDITH BANDSMA wrote to ROSS SAUER <=-
-=> Quoting Ross Sauer to Sally Springett <=-
RS> Actually, Fleishmann and Pons are still claiming their "cold fusion"
RS> works, and they are currently doing "research" and claiming more
RS> "results" from this private lab they suckered into letting them work
RS> at.
JB> Betcha the owners of the lab are religionists. I seriously doubt
JB> anybody else would be that gullible.
I've read where a reputable institution, M.I.T., comes to mind that
ran a control, without heavy water, and a duplicate of the
cold fusion generator and actually got surplus energy.
However due to some messing with the results in order to debunk
the idea these results too are in question.
Until I see one of these things generate power, heat, radiation
and helium I ain't buying it. One day perhaps it will be possible,
or not.
--- MultiMail/PBellDOS v0.35
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 09:02:00
EID:69de 62304840
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 78f058a4
TZUTC: -0500
JUDITH BANDSMA said to ROSS SAUER:
JB> -=> Quoting Ross Sauer to Sally Springett <=-
JB> RS> Actually, Fleishmann and Pons are still claiming their "cold
JB> RS> fusion" works, and they are currently doing "research" and
JB> RS> claiming more "results" from this private lab they suckered
JB> RS> into letting them work at.
JB>Betcha the owners of the lab are religionists. I seriously doubt
JB>anybody else would be that gullible.
In the article it didn't mention anything about religion, but the rich
guy who owns the lab is one of those anti-Gov't paranoid nutbrains.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ALL
|Sub: College?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 09:04:00
EID:3c4d 62304880
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 887de2ce
TZUTC: -0500
Note from Ross:
Read #10 carefully, but make sure you're not eating or drinking
anything.
I was laughing so hard I nearly fell off my chair.
I didn't alter this at all. This is exactly how I got it in my e-mail.
Oh BTW, to the victim....err....subject of #10....PPBBLLTTT!!!
January 16, 2001
The Top 15 Signs Your Child Wasn't Cut Out for College
[ The Top 5 List www.topfive.com ]
[ Copyright 2001 by Chris White ]
15> Refuses to show up for his Advanced Quantum Physics class
without his Teletubby backpack and Scooby Doo pencil case.
14> Can't even chug milk.
13> First it was a million, then a billion, and now Billy says
he'll go back to Harvard once he's made a *trillion* dollars.
12> Thinks "MCATs" is a song by Hanson.
11> Her proposed major: Math; Her first choice university:
University of Florida, Broward County
10> Princeton Application: "What books have influenced you most?"
Timmy's response: "Dianetics, The Rock's autobiography, and
'NASCAR for Dummies'."
9> Her high school senior thesis involved a coffee can and raw
macaroni.
8> While his determination is admirable, young Raheem's refusal
to take "no" for an answer from Bob Jones U. is troubling.
7> So far, his only recruitment offers have been from Ringling
Brothers.
6> Her biggest high school accomplishment? Voted "Most Likely
to Win a Snot Rocket Competition."
5> He sucks at Algebra, but is a natural born wizard at
high-speed French fry portion control.
4> He's already signed a national letter of intent with
Jiffy-Lube.
3> Her SAT score? 130, with a special commendation for "not
stabbing herself with the pencil."
2> "Yale? Heck, I ain't even talkin' loud!"
and Topfive.com's Number 1 Sign Your
Child Wasn't Cut Out for College...
1> The "PlayStation 2" you gave him for Christmas? A joy stick
glued in front of the fish tank.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Assholes in Foxholes
|Date: 16 Jan 01 09:06:00
EID:b8c1 623048c0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 b182633b
TZUTC: -0500
JUDITH BANDSMA said to DON MARTIN:
JB> -=> Quoting Don Martin to All <=-
JB> TR> Tim Richardson
JB> DM> Did anyone else find this list of nasty people (most of
JB> DM> whom are confirmed Catholics) interesting?
JB>Yep. Especially that last name included.
JB>But then, we knew that, didn't we?
Yup. In the Politics echo Tim is STILL trying (and failing) to defend
his asinine statement about Sodom and Gommorah "deserving to be nuked."
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: KARL SCHNEIDER
|Sub: Holy fucking shit
|Date: 16 Jan 01 12:08:00
EID:615d 62306100
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 893f6747
TZUTC: -0500
KARL SCHNEIDER said to ALL :
KS>.GMD: 1:396/1
KS>.MSGID: 1:170/501 de3b7980
KS>Look at this comment from one of the FTB morons from another echo:
KS>C > RS> On 01-07-01, CENTURION said to VERN HUMPHREY:
KS>C > Radioactivity is a chemical characteristic. Change the chemistry
KS>of the waste and you no longer have radioactive waste.
KS>---------------------------------------------------------------------
KS>-- And this is one of the guys who sucks Stan H's cock for
KS>complaining 'there are no smart liberals'.
KS>Jesusfuckingchrist.
Tell me about it.
Like I said in the Politics echo, Hector's law applies there as well.
(Although I seriously doubt any of the FTB's there will even get a
glimmering of what it is.)
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: Elizabeth McGuire
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: ...
|Date: 16 Jan 01 10:48:18
EID:4a88 62305600
MSGID: 1:261/1010 3A646F84
PID: WWIV BBS v. 424
TID: WWIVTOSS v. 1.40
RE: FUNDY ALERT!!!
Begin Quote
These same areas of the Bible also say that if YOU were raped, you would
have to marry your rapist, that kids who get uppity should be stoned to
death, and that having slaves is JUST fine.
End Quote
Mmm hmm, neither of which I would ever do. I didn't say I necessarily agree
with what I quoted to you. There are a lot of things in the Bible (and
some other religion's texts for that matter) I have a problem with. I just
wanted to back the man up.
Begin Quote
Any of you want to tear at this fresh meat, before I do?
End Quote
HELP!!! He's trying to eat me!
--- WWIVToss v.1.40 Unregistered [28 days run!]
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|From: Michael Gothreau
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 07:21:31
EID:3c12 62303aa0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.35 09766c05
REPLY: 1:393/9005.30 3a60c779
Greetings to you, God!
On 13 Jan 01, God Dan wrote to Michael Gothreau...
-> On 10 Jan 01 18:00:47, Michael Gothreau got back to God Dan
-> Re: Evidence?
RS> * SLMR 2.1a * Philosophers are tourists. Scientists are
RS> explorers.
JW> ...and true theists are residents. :-)
GD> See tagline. You fit in far too well.
GD> ... Did you ever notice how fundies like to argue with taglines?
MG> He should have written "...and true theists are sheep."
MG> Nobody could have argued with that...
GD> Yeah, but someome might steal that...
GD> ... "...and true theists are sheep." -- Michael Gothreau
Heheheheheheh...
Michael R. Gothreau, Ordained ULC
Pastor - Church of the Telecaster
... 50,666 - The v.90 connect speed of the beast.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:27:00
EID:a031 622f6360
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 1e94c641
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
ML> "Know thy audience."
JW> As if you come close.
10 in the orange.
We've got you pegged.
... He is a man without limits...his stupidity knows no bounds.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:28:00
EID:a105 622f6380
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 445e1720
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Marty Leipzig <=-
SA> That is true. However, those antibiotic-resistant bacteria
SA> that are now showing up all over the place show evolution exists.
RS> Only if you equate adaptation to evolution.
ML> Evolution operates on populations, not individuals. It also
ML> operates over the span of geological time, not the pitiful time
ML> scales of humanity.
RS> So, evolved MDR bacteria would take
RS> more than "the pitiful time scales
RS> of humanity" to occur. Thanks, Marty.
Exactly. If the conditions for which these bacteria adpated
changed and the resistance proved deletiterous, the bacteria
would be an evolutionary dead end. If not, this strain of
bacteria would face such possibilities at every turn of their
environment. This, of course will take time; more than the
piteous, when compared to the age of the Earth, tenure man has
had on this planet.
Now, multiply the bacteria's activities over the span of geologic
time and you have what's called evolution.
Adaptation over time (whatever time you are keen upon) is
called microevolution; microevolution over geologic time is
macroevolution (or, as some prefer, just "evolution").
Anything else you require enlightenment upon?
... And to think, he's the product of 3,800,000,000 years of evolution.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:29:00
EID:a8ec 622f63a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 e0df6eeb
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-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Marty Leipzig <=-
RS> I pray because I've been taught
ML> You pray because you've been brainwashed and incapable of
ML> critical thinking.
RS> that
RS> God can and will help those that ask
RS> for His help, and that I can ask for
RS> help on the behalf of others.
ML> Still you commit the sin of hubris asking your God to
ML> change His plans to suit YOU.
ML> And you find nothing, ever so tiny bit, disquieting about that?
RS> It's what He's told us to do.
Doesn't that seem just a bit tautological to you? Here you have
an omnipresent, all-knowing, omnipowerful God creating you, and
knowing everything that will happen to you (by your
definition), yet you still believe He told you (BTW, you hear
God talking?) to pray to Him so that He can change what he
originally set up for you?
And you haven't the least little logical problem with that?
RS> All
RS> that He requires is that we choose
RS> Him.
ML> Why is it that an omnipotent, omniscient God NEEDS anything?
ML> Particularly from mere mortals?
RS> I don't know that He does. Perhaps
RS> "wants" would be more correct.
"What God wants, God gets. God help us all..." - Waters, R.
ML> So, evidently, by your own words and actions (inactions,
ML> really, prayer tends to be nothing more than a raising of
ML> hands upward (or a pious folding) coupled with that usual
ML> "who-cut-one" eye's-wide closed goofy expression), you are
ML> better than your "God" (the author of the entire cosmos),
ML> but yet you still are powerless to do anything but pray to
ML> ask "Him" to change "His" plan, just for you?
RS> You misunderstand. See above.
ML> I did, and you STILL have not explained why you're so damned
ML> special that God'll change His cosmic plans for your determined
ML> pleading.
RS> I don't know why you and I are so
RS> special.
I am special because I am unique and a sentient individual,
among myriad other qualities.
I have no idea about you.
ML> Or why you're so egomanical.
RS> We are all special. Not an ego
RS> issue.
Sure it is. You're not just claiming that you're special,
your're claiming that you're "extraspecial" because of your
perceived personal interaction with some deity.
Egomaniac.
ML> Hmph. Must go with the territory.
ML> A tautology, wrapped up in hubris, with a ribbon of
ML> selfishness.
ML> Luckily, many other folks prefer action to the sort of
ML> weird supplication (and ululation) you seem to prefer.
RS> What action do they take when someone
RS> is about to die, that believers do not?
ML> They provide real aid and comfort, not some illusory
ML> supplication to some supposed superfriend that it'll be
ML> all right, in the next life.
RS> I work in a Catholic hospital. We do
RS> much more than just pray. Besides,
RS> what's wrong with saying "it'll be
RS> all right, in the next life" if it
RS> gives comfort?
BECAUSE IT'S A LIE.
You do not know that for a fact. It's mere allegedy comforting
lip-service and nothing more than a pernicious lie.
ML> Prove me wrong. Give me a list of Christian Scientist EMS'.
RS> What do Christian Scientists have to
RS> do with this?
Read up on them and perhaps you won't come off here as such a
buffoon.
Then again, perhaps not.
RS> Why do you insinuate prayer disallows
RS> any other actions? Prayer is in addition
RS> to those actions.
Oh, do you also make live animal sacrifices, light candles and
perform other weird, and equally useless rituals?
Yeah. Real helpful.
KS> The ultimate manifestation of such a mindset is when
KS> 'pious' folks won't take a sick kid to a doctor. GOD
KS> DAMN, that shit makes me really mad.
ML> Hey, it's God's will. There you go again, knowing better
ML> than the deity you worship.
RS> Now, you're talking something completely
RS> different, IMO. I could never do this. I
RS> can't see how this belief comes from
RS> Christianity. This seems (to me) to be
RS> following the wrong path, so to speak.
ML> All faith is a blind path in a dark forest leading nowhere.
I see you still have no comment.
Not unexpected.
... Always, always pretend to be good and even God will be fooled.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:30:00
EID:ba53 622f63c0
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-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Marty Leipzig <=-
RS> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RS> I believe that homosexuality is
RS> wrong.
ML> Why?
RS> As I said, it is a sin against God.
Says who? You? Your priest/minister/guru/shaman?
Or some ancient tome of Hebrew mythology?
RS> That, in and of itself is enough.
There's that Christian flexibility we've heard so much about...
A mind set in concrete. Very flexible.
RS> I think that the primary reason for
RS> sex is for procreation.
Then, it's safe to assume, you're a virgin, correct?
If so, quit trying to foist your version of morality on others;
if not, you must either be celibate, extremely frustrated or
have hundreds of children.
RS> I don't see
RS> procreation in homosexual sex.
Why not? In vitro fertilization is always a possibility. Or,
how about adoption?
Since the primary reason for sex is not reproduction (from an
socioevolutionary standpoint, the primary reason is pair-bonding;
then reproduction), your premise is invalid and your reasoning
flawed.
RS> I believe that it is a sin
RS> against God,
ML> Why? Could you, if you disposed of your Biblical prejudices,
ML> accept that homosexual is what some folks are?
RS> I don't need to dispose of
RS> anything to accept that some are
RS> homosexual.
Sure, you "accept" them with a loathing and revulsion that they
are "unclean" and unlike you, having some sort of psychic
affair with a supernatural Big Brother.
It's the Alpha Male syndrome and you're the one that's being
ceremoniously mounted.
Rather odd how the tables have seemed to turn.
RS> and unnatural.
ML> It's as natural as fucking can be. It is displayed in many,
ML> many different orders of animals: cetaceans, aves, primates
ML> (the non-human variety), canines, rodents, felids,
ML> crocodilians, boids, etc., etc.
ML> And it's not just when these animals are put in stressful or
ML> "unnatural" situations. It's something that happens, quite
ML> naturally.
RS> This is news to me.
Why am I not surprised?
RS> I've never
RS> seen dogs, horses, nor any other
RS> animals in a homosexual encounter,
RS> though I have seen them in
RS> heterosexual encounters.
Not surprising. But, then again, I doubt very much that you're
at all familiar with the classic studies in the scientific
journals.
Just because you haven't seem 'em or know anything about it, it
still does not prevent you from making uninformed proclamations
or alter in the least your prejudices.
Never let the facts interfere with your faith, right Robbo?
RS> I do not like to see it, as it
RS> makes me very uncomfortable.
ML> What? Just because your heart does the Cha-Cha every time you
ML> see a couple of women or men holding hands, that's a reason to
ML> ridicule, loathe and despise that group?
RS> My heart doesn't "do the Cha- Cha".
What then? The Samba?
RS> What makes you think that I
RS> ridicule or despise "that group"?
Your responses here in this very forum. Evidence enough for all
to see what you really feel about "that group".
RS> I haven't said anything, until I
RS> was asked. If anything, I feel
RS> sorry for them.
How nice. You loathe, despise and pity them.
How characteristically Christian of you.
ML> Or, are you just fearful that you see more of
ML> yourself in them than you care to admit?
RS> Not that I equate these; but, I
RS> don't feel comfortable around
RS> drug users, theives, adulterers,
RS> murderers, etc.
Then don't hang with them (personally, I know zero drug users,
theives, adulterers, murderers, etc.; but then again, I'm an
atheist and don't pal around with overtly religious types.)
RS> I believe that, as with any sin,
ML> Ah, Pffft! 'Sin'. The only sin is ignorance.
ML> Sinner.
RS> You can believe what you want.
Impossible, as I believe nothing. I know that for a fact.
RS> it is up to the individual(s) to
RS> correct the behavior,
ML> It may be genetically encoded. Go ahead, "correct" your
ML> eye color.
RS> Eye color is not an act, and
RS> does not involve choice.
Genetic predispositions are not an act. Homosexuality maybe
exactly that.
RS> Sex is
RS> a choice.
For someone who obviously hasn't much experience in that field,
you certainly do make a load of proclamations about it.
RS> Celibacy is a choice.
RS> Stealing is a choice. Etc.
So, sex is fine just as long as it's sanctioned by you?
Your font of tolerance underwhelms us.
RS> or else accept the
RS> consequences in the afterlife.
ML> Piss on the afterlife. You may want to waste your real life on
ML> an illusory afterlife, but please don't burden thinking people
ML> with your fanciful, and inane, precepts.
RS> Then, don't ask.
I didn't ask anything about some ridiculous afterlife. However,
it seems you can't go a single message without bringing it up.
RS> It is not for me to interfere,
ML> But it's OK to be judgemental, condescending and arrogant?
ML> Nice set of values you got there, bucko.
RS> If that's how you see it.
What I can see about you is only based on the evidence of your
posts.
Don't like that? Too bad. They say the truth hurts; you
must be in agony.
RS> until and unless it affects
RS> someone whom I'm responsible for.
ML> But still you sit there all smug and smarmy, glowering down
ML> from your supposed moral high-horse on all those dirty queers.
RS> Everyone has faults.
Paint yourself with your own broad-brush.
RS> Mine are no
RS> better or worse than anyone elses.
No? Then why did you earlier revile drug users, adulterers,
murderers, etc. Hell, those are faults. You, by your own
admission, have faults equal to them.
Are hate and self loathing a prerequsite to be a Christian? Or
is it just that those suffused with hatred and personal
revision are drawn to Christianity?
RS> I think that a look over the posts
RS> in here will show who is "glowering
RS> down".
Obviously, you mistake logic and capacity for arrogance. Common
error for those unfamiliar with those particular qualities.
ML> People like you make me rejoice that I'm an atheist.
RS> If it doesn't affect these, then,
RS> as Benny Hill says: "I think that
RS> Lebanese and homosapiens should be
RS> left to their own devices, really
RS> I do".
ML> Your attempt (and failure) at humor does nothing to mask the
ML> repugnance of your post.
RS> This was a retelling, not my own
RS> creation.
And not worth the time nor electrons.
ML> Let me ask you, what's your beliefs on atheism and atheists?
RS> I think that they're mistaken.
No, you believe that.
On what do you base that claim?
... Don't read everything you believe.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: GEORGE POPE
|Sub: sexuality genetic?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:31:00
EID:b49b 622f63e0
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-=> Quoting George Pope to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> Whoopdee fuck^2. Not all cultures hold to any version of "hell"
ML> and not all cultures buy into, if they cleave unto some form of
ML> divine retribution, believe you have to wait until dead to get
ML> it.
GP> EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK I WAS SAYING, YOU DOOFUS!!!!
Then why didn't you say so in the first instance, dickhead?
ML> GP> to there being any
ML> GP> place of eternal torment where some people go when they die! That's
ML> GP> the only point I'm making -- what is YOUR stance on this subject,
in
ML> GP> this thread, exactly?
ML>
ML> That "hell" is for those who believe in such nonsense. It is
ML> not a "catch-all" nor is it a cultural given.
GP> Well, I was saying that "death" is the 'cultural given'
That's not what you said originally.
GP> -- "hell" is
GP> merely the Biblical word for this concept of everybody ending up
GP> "dead"!
Odd. I always thought it had to do something with fire and
brimstone.
Must be your abridged Bible...
... Big book, big bore.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:32:00
EID:0b6f 622f6400
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 3d8325f3
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-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marty Leipzig <=-
MG>> Do you fill the house with the aroma of distilling
MG>> corncobs?
ML> Only as much as you fill yours with the redolence of
ML> rotting compost and loch water.
MG> Along with the bouquet of the finest tht the Honduras has to offer.
Next thing you know, you'll be sprinkling incest all over the
place to cover the aroma.
MG>> I'm told
MG>> that aroma therapy is the rage these days.
ML> Come drive a while down here. I'll gives ya' rage.
MG> Where the hell are ya? Still the same place?
Out in Katy, Texas; sort of like "Plano-west"; it's the far
side of Houston.
Beware of atheists calling your lab in the near future.`
... The idle mind knows not what it is it wants.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:33:00
EID:43b3 622f6420
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-=> Quoting God Dan to Marty Leipzig <=-
-> On 08 Jan 01 07:46:00, MARTY LEIPZIG got back to JOHN WILSON
ML> A tautology, wrapped up in hubris, with a ribbon of
ML> selfishness.
JW> A pretty apt description of 99.9% of those I heard.
ML> You hear prayers?
ML>
JW> Whenever they are said in my presence, yes.
ML>
ML> Odd. Aren't you enjoined to pray silently in your cult?
GD> I think he's enjoined to shit on his cult. If not, he's doing
GD> a good job of doing so.
"'Eh, it's a talent."
Maybe once we could get past his pomposity and actully have
him say something that made sense.
Big maybe.
... "Here, fundy, fundy, fundy. Nice fundy...***<<>>***"
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: BLANCHE NONKEN
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:34:00
EID:38d7 622f6440
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 b5dd8eb6
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-=> Quoting Blanche Nonken to Marty Leipzig <=-
BN> From: Blanche Nonken
BN> (posted TO: MARTY LEIPZIG)
BN> FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
> FTN-Posted-By: MARTY LEIPZIG
> (posted TO: ROBERT SAYRE)
> What? Just because your heart does the Cha-Cha every time you
> see a couple of women or men holding hands, that's a reason to
> ridicule, loathe and despise that group?
BN> Odds are ( and I'll bet) it's not women doing (as a friend put it on
BN> another ng) "lickey-lickey" that twitches him so discomfitingly.
It's hilarious. He's proclaiming all sorts of things about sex
and I'd wager a case of Toohey's KB Lager he's got as much
experience in that particular arena as Stevie Wonder does with
driving Indy cars.
... Beer...It's not just for breakfast any more.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:35:00
EID:a031 622f6460
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-=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
ML> Odd. Aren't you enjoined to pray silently in your cult?
JW> Oh, a hero of mine once said that you should find a closet somewhere
JW> and do it
ML> Oh? You've come out of the closet?
JW> From silly, you now descend to infantile.
Yeah, one must plumb the depths when replying to you.
JW> The reference was to
JW> a saying attributed to Jesus.
JW>
Ah, more mythology. Wonderful.
JW> ...but no one in my cult/coven/Church/denomination/group of
JW> fundys/Christian neighbors pays a damn bit of attention... :-)
ML> That's what we're on about. Listen up. You may just learn
ML> something.
JW> From you? Only when I want lessons in disagreeableness.
That you don't need; it's obviously innate.
Meshes well with your hubris.
JW> `Sides, praying to me in public is a bit show-offish, I think....
ML> And damned silly and wasteful of time, as well.
JW> Damned near caught the humour there. Work on it. You might
JW> become a pleasent fellow, if you *really* worked at it.
JW>
Oh, I am. But those of impaired thought processes are often
unable to notice.
JW> Tell me; you were hurt as a child wern't you?
ML> Stupid question #677853/J. I defy you to show me someone who
ML> hadn't suffered some form of injury as a pre-adult.
JW> Once again you're batting .000 ......
As you deftly step into a speeding knuckleball and try to ignore
the issue away.
A unique modification of the Fundy Shuffle, but one that must
be inordinately painful; not to mention hard on the ol'
horsehide.
... Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief!
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:36:00
EID:ac96 622f6480
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-=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
JW> Have you read the latest issue of Scientific American?
ML> Nope. I'm too busy reading real scientific journals.
JW> A near-perfect
JW> issue! Strange universe indeed! I grinned to myself when I read
JW> in the article on quintessence the improbable precision of the
JW> universe
ML> PETITIO! Beg the question a bit more. "Improbable
ML> precision"?
ML> Says who? Some anthropomcentric astronomer?
JW> No.
JW> Dissing Scientific American
JW> is a hi-toned put-down. I am really impressed.
It wasn't difficult. I can see how you would be so easily
impressed.
JW>
ML> Enough of your appelations to questionable authorities.
JW> Jeremiah. P. Ostriker (In 2000 he won the U.S. National medal of
JW> Science) And Paul j. Steinhardt, both of Princeton.
Hooray. Princeton must be justifiably proud.
JW> necessary for the theory needs "...almost supenatural fine
JW> tuning..." ...which is probably the closest to `evidence' that science
JW> will come to. :-)
ML> Key word: "almost".
JW> Yep. It motivates their search for alternative theories...
Of which, the "supernatural" in not one, as it's a belief set
and nowhere near a theory.
You'd think such illustrous Princtonians would know this.
JW> To providing "evidence". (I guess I must explain to you;
That'd be the day...
JW> for a lerned man, you sure act like a jerk sometimes...)
Yours is no act.
JW>
JW> And no, I'm not looking for evidence nor desire to provide it.
Ah, another mind set in concrete. Why search for evidence when
yours already existes between your ears?
JW> (The supernatural; as mention in the magazine)
JW> To which you reply, stupidly:
Be fair, I WAS replying to you.
Age quod ages.
ML> Your scientific curiousity ranks right up there with your
ML> scientific and logical acumen, I see.
JW> You really see very little.
20/20, chuckles. 20/20.
JW> I was suprised at this, now I rather
JW> expect it.
Well, far be it from us to deprive you. YOu're deprived enough
already.
JW> I sure hope you read your scientific journals with more
JW> comprehension than you exhibit here
Let me guess. You work at a movie theater, right? Perfect
calling for a projectionist such as yourself.
JW> .y.
Ya fucked up the emoticon, tweedles. Guess I must have pushed
the right buttons to get you so bebothered.
JW> The subject was "the
JW> supernatural" a phrase in Scientific American...you missed the
JW> reference. Actually, you miss a lot.
Nope, didn't miss a thing. The prhase "the behemoth has the
sinews of his stones wrapped toigether", which makes about as
much sense as a supposedly scientific journal nattering on
about the supernatural.
JW> It is interesting as is the remark on `inflation' within the Big Bang
JW> theory (In "Plan B for the Cosmos") "...uniformity can be explained
JW> only by fine-tuning the initial conditions - essentially a recourse
to
JW> metaphysics." (!) :-)
ML> "Essentially"? Either it is or it is not. If it is, it is
ML> not
ML> science and can be ignored. If it is not, it, then too, can
ML> safely be ignored.
JW> Go argue with your betters.
Tough to do as there are so few. I must, by necessity, argue
with the likes of you instead.
JW> I'm just following, as best I can
No need to apologize. After all, it is the best you can do.
JW> an issue on Cosmology. Dismiss it for all I care.
Gee whiz, how very magnanimous of you.
Codswalloper.
ML> Now, you were saying something?
JW> I guess not. Not to you anyway.
Seems you're afflicted with this malady quite often. Perhaps
you should seek professional help?
JW> Jackass.
Oh, wounded am I on such rapier-like wit...
A farmyard reference; not unexpected. Going with your natural
proclivities, I see.
... Methinks thou art a shithead.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Teric.
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:37:00
EID:5178 622f64a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 c418f027
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
JW>
JW> Why do atheists take everthing so literally; have they no poetry in
JW> their soul????
ML> No, you boob. We don't have a "soul".
JW> Once again .000...
Yep. You haven't spoiled your "perfect" record for inanity.
JW> (And proving my point above!)
The only point you have on that misshapen melon resting
precariously on your hunched shoulders.
JW> =====================
ML> "But I don't want to go, Mommy! It's not fair!"
ML> "That's OK. God's on the other side and he'll make it all
ML> better."
ML> A more pernicious and dastardly lie could not be possibly
ML> construed. Yet, you seem to prefer this course of action,
ML> and,
ML> nay, require it in order to give your life some meaning.
JW> You once said, I believe, that laymen shouldn't do science.
Not unless their trained in such subjects.
JW> Ignorant churls shouldn't do theology.
Then why do you insist on doing so?
JW> Or be so arragant
I only appear arrogant to you because you cannot stand to see
your arguments so easily, and repeatedly, demolished.
JW> as to
JW> so easily (and erroniously) ascribe your straw examples
"Straw examples"? Hardly, they're cut fromn the same shoody bolt
of religion that you embrace.
JW> to those you know so little about.
I know more than you could or could possibly imagine.
JW> It hardly reflects the intelligence you must use elsewhere.
Says something then about your acumen here then; if I don't need
intelligence to deconstruct your litle claims and
proclamations. One doesn't need a cruise missile to swat a
chigger, metaphorically speaking.
A little verbal Raid does the trick nicely.
JW> =============
ML> I pity you, John; seriously. I really do.
JW> A wasted emotion.
True enough. You're not worth the effort.
JW> ML I cannot imagine
ML> such
ML> psychic suicide...you warble on about the preciousness of
ML> life
ML> and it's sanctity, yet, you give it up... for belief, faith
ML> and
ML> acceptance without evidence nor question...
JW> What ignorance! What abject misunderstanding!
Yes, indeed. You do so personify those "qualities".
JW> Batting .000 again....
Heard a new catchphrase, I see. Shit, between the emoticons,
"churls" and now this; if I erased all them, there'd be nothing
to respond to.
As if there usually is anything of substance from you....
JW> Surely you know better.
ML> You have my pity, John.
JW> I have your ignorant insults, only.
Insults? I haven't even begun to get insulting.
You, on the other hand, have no choice. For you, it's a
natural.
ML> I'll stick with reality.
JW> As if you had a real handle on it, to the exclusion of most others.
95% believe in some sort of "God". That alone puts me in some
rather exclusive company.
But, please. Continue as before, go with the herd.
JW> -----------
JW> And what do you mean worthwhile?
ML> Much, much more than you do, obviously.
JW> So obviously you don't answer the question? Sure.
It was answered. The fact you can't comprehend the reply is no
failing of mine.
ML> Only religion is still stuck in the stasis of immutability.
JW> Have you read no history at ALL?
More than you could comprehend. Realizing that's not much, I
must append and reply "Yes. Tremendous amounts."
JW> ----------------
ML> You deserve better? Provide evidence to support your claims.
JW> When there is a decent, reasonable interested person to listen, I
JW> would;
Looks like your shit out of luck, Johnny-boy. You demand
decency and reasonableness, yet you furnish neither.
An old adage regarding "reaping" and "sewing" comes to mind.
JW> To a judgmental
Just who's doing the judging here, Johnny-boy?
JW> ass,
More herd mentality and farmyard references.
Are we in any way surprised?
JW>not a chance.
Of ever getting anything of substance from the likes of you?
In spades, Johnny-boy, in spades.
... Be sure to treat your assumptions as if they were reality.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:38:00
EID:0b66 622f64c0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 95330708
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting God Dan to Marty Leipzig <=-
-> On 11 Jan 01 23:26:00, MARTY LEIPZIG got back to GOD DAN
GD> Back in the 1960's, the resultant was Au + H2O
WC> Uh, little confused here, isn't Pb lead, S2 sulfer and Au
WC> gold. A little more alchamy going on here than allowed for in
WC> science. Ain't it lead sulphide or some such.
GD> "Gold" "Water", a former presidential candidate.
ML> FeS2.
GD> There's no '2' in ferrous sulfide.
ML> Nor is there a "fool", yet...
GD> Au, you shouldn't go that way..
ML> That's just none of your Bi.
GD> Aren't you be rather un-(x)Hg2 to me?
Just be glad you're refractory with all this fulminating.
It's just such a HgS's not open this early.
GD> Don't you hate a smart-ass?
ML> Harumph.
GD> As I now know, I am pyrite at times.
ML> Well, don't be realgar (AsS).
GD> Don't be so AsHg2.
Like I'm going to be Pb by the nose?
... No matter what happens, there is always someone who knew it would.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: MARK KIMES
|Sub: Teric.
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:39:00
EID:42f9 622f64e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> Quoting Mark Kimes to Marty Leipzig <=-
MK> From: Mark Kimes
MK> (posted TO: Marty Leipzig)
MK> FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Marty Leipzig
JW>> ...what are the benefits, other than discarding
JW>> a lot of theological and cultural lingusitic
JW>> baggage? A clearer picture of your life's
JW>> meaning or purpose or worth?
> It's a helluva lot more than simply linguistics.
> It's an unfettering of one's mind from questions
> which, by their very construction, cannot be
> answered. Why chase illusory waterfowl when
> there's an entire cosmos out there to investigate?
MK> At the very least it frees you from old, unsatisfactory answers to
MK> loaded questions, and allows you to look at the questions that were
MK> intentionally not asked prior to those loaded questions.
"But these mysteries are not for the eyes/ears/nose/throat of
mere mortals! How else can we prey on fear and ignorance
without some sort of cosmic unanserables and our planting it on
some God?"
MK> What causes
MK> many of the questions to be discarded is the ability to look at them
MK> honestly and realize that they're invalid in the first place -- but
you
MK> may find a valid question underneath it.
That presupposes honesty, inquisitiveness and a desire to know
fact; which is a large presupposition if church membership
roles are anything to be taken as correct.
JW>> If value is not of scientific interest
MK> One might well view scientific method as a means of ferreting out
MK> value from fields of dross. What John-boy actually means is that
MK> scientific value is not of interest to him, perhaps.
He has as much as said so, coupled with all his tap dancing and
his laughable "I demand decency and respectability", whilst
tossing pejoratives around with abandon. He's hilarious,
however untentional it is on his part. Then again, hypocrisy,
while unpleasant, can be humorous at times, given it's
origination.
JW>> and atheism introduces a bleakness
JW>> regarding death...
> If you require some supernatural being to personally
> make your life worthwhile, then there is nothing I
> can say to alter that situation.
MK> Ah, but he's giving away his real problem there -- he's looking at
MK> "bleakness regarding death" rather than "worthwhile value in life."
One wonders why they're so damned concerned with the next life when
they make so precious little of their first.
Damned paradoxical. Won't they be surprised?
ML>>>>> Oh, yeah? With which revision of the Bible,
ML>>>>> Qu'ran, Torah, etc?
JW>>>> They are *all* being revised, every day....
ML>>> Sorry, but quite a few billion of very
ML>>> religious, very fundamentalist and very
ML>>> deluded people disagree with you.
JW>> Oh they may now, but few are up to the world.
JW>> Change comes faster and faster...
> Only religion is still stuck in the stasis of
> immutability.
MK> John-boy's just telling you that his religion is better than theirs.
As he condecendingly peers down his proboscis.
MK> "There are new religions and religious ideas; I have embraced one, they
MK> haven't. T hey're wrong and I'm right. Nyah, nyah."
hHat whirring sound you hear is me hooking up a generator to
the rapidly revolving Pascal.
MK> You're right -- same old song, same lack of reason and evidence to
MK> back it up.
"Same as it ever was, same as it ever was..." - Heads, Talking.
... Check your religion - then don't redeem it.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:40:00
EID:0b6f 622f6500
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML>> Fuckin'-A, no shit. Next thing you know, he'll be
ML>> washing it all down with Pabst Blue Ribbon...
MG> Reminds me of the famous baseball pitcher Mel Fame'. he got drunk one
MG> night on Pabst Blue Ribbon the day before pitching in a game with New
MG> York and blew it in the first inning by issuing walks to the first
MG> thirty two batters.
MG> After that, in new York, Pabst became known as "the beer that made Mel
MG> Fame' walk us."
Old, even for you, joke.
'Sides that, ya got it wrong. Schlitz was the beer that made
Milwaukee famous.
Sheesh.
... Bible belief: Is it real or is it Mesmerex? -- Don Martin
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Gold
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:41:00
EID:cdbe 622f6520
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marty Leipzig <=-
MG>> Scotch has an aroma of taste and culture.
ML> Aroma like a bagpiper's convention after the haggis and
ML> culture like what's found between their toes.
MG> And the bourbon bottles are what the pipers use to pee in.
Well better to piss in them when empty than to do it on the
floor.
MG> No one can
MG> tell the diffrence.
A little Pine Sol should fix that.
MG>> Bourbon has only the aroma of culture. E. coli to be
MG>> prcise.
ML> But only the friendly kind.
MG> Not many of those. they evolve to quickly.
Got to keep the little buggers on their toes...
... As your Doctor I advise you to start drinking heavily.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:42:00
EID:f690 622f6540
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marty Leipzig <=-
MG>> Anyone that likes bourbon would be unbelievable.
ML> Hey, Herr Dok: "I'm lying".
MG> You've given up rocks and gone into used cars or religion?
Neither. I'm just giving Immunologists grief.
ML>
MG> Why would you lie about liking bourbon? (This is a rhetorical
MG> question)
Suited for a rhetorical response "Because there's nothing left
bad to say about scotch."
... Don't drink and drive. You might spill your drink.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:43:00
EID:7183 622f6560
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 9128b1ba
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-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marty Leipzig <=-
MG>> Yeah. He's dead. Musta done his wine before his time.
ML> We'll all end up that way. It's the stuff you do before
ML> that's important.
MG> Unless you count "fertilizer".
Classified "Toxic waste".
... "Damned Palestinians. Bring a rock to a gun fight." - Y. Arafat
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: CINDY HAGLUND
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:44:00
EID:5bf5 622f6580
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-=> Quoting Cindy Haglund to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> Why? Could you, if you disposed of your Biblical prejudices,
ML> accept that homosexual is what some folks are?
CH> Ask Robert S. that unanswered question again? Ask him if "GOD"
CH> isn't simply a self- fulfilling co-dependancy type of behavior
CH> evidently specifically manifested by homo sapiens?
Save your fingers. Next time, just call it "mass delusion".
ML> RS> and unnatural.
ML> It's as natural as fucking can be. It is displayed in many,
ML> many different orders of animals: cetaceans, aves, primates
ML> (the non-human variety), canines, rodents, felids, crocodilians,
ML> boids, etc., etc.
CH> Oh boy! The "Natural" question again. Does Robert S. at all
CH> grasp the 'in the eys of the beholder' nature of 'natural?
Nope, however that is the least of which he grasps.
CH> But then since it's natural for objects in motion thought too?> to seek the path of least resistance, so then is it not
CH> natural to be whatever we choose naturally, to do or be?
"Because it's against the will of God. Just ask my preacher."
Natural, to schmucks such as this, is what they've been told
is natural.
ML> And it's not just when these animals are put in stressful or
ML> "unnatural" situations. It's something that happens, quite
ML> naturally.
ML> RS> I do
ML> RS> not like to see it, as it makes
ML> RS> me very uncomfortable.
ML> What? Just because your heart does the Cha-Cha every time you
ML> see a couple of women or men holding hands, that's a reason to
ML> ridicule, loathe and despise that group?
CH> Robert S. might choose not to look or would minding his own business
CH> be too unatural for him?
But then he couldn't be judgemental and get all goose-pimply
looking down his schnoz at "those people".
ML> Or, are you just fearful that you see more of yourself in them
ML> than you care to admit?
ML> RS> I believe that, as with any sin,
ML> Ah, Pffft! 'Sin'. The only sin is ignorance.
CH> And religion promotes ignorance best.
It's part and parcel with religion. In fact, one might say that
ignorance (oftimes couched in such sugary nonsense as
"Mysteries of faith") is it's very foundation.
ML> Sinner.
ML> RS> it is up to the individual(s) to
ML> RS> correct the behavior,
CH> Cool. Earth to Robert: personal choice = mind your own.
Don't like homosexuals? Great. Don't be one.
ML> It may be genetically encoded. Go ahead, "correct" your eye
ML> color.
ML> RS> or else
ML> RS> accept the consequences in the
ML> RS> afterlife.
CH> What afterlife?
More like afterbirth. Pass the placenta helper...
CH> Oh wait! There is afterlife... whatever
CH> ingests your remains
Not much after a 1 pound charge of C4.
ML> Piss on the afterlife. You may want to waste your real life on
CH> Many many many many many people, do. Why? Ignorance is the path of
CH> least resistance methinks.
It spares the practitioner the painful process of having to
think.
As is so amply demonstrated in this very forum.
ML> an illusory afterlife, but please don't burden thinking people
ML> with your fanciful, and inane, precepts.
CH> At least Robert doesn't smother his defenses in all those phoney
CH> baloney clue-free smileys.
Watch it. Next you know, you'll be labeled (again and again and
again) a churl.
Wicked repartee.
ML> RS> It is not for me to
ML> RS> interfere,
ML> But it's OK to be judgemental, condescending and arrogant?
CH> Exaclty. Exactly. Curious minds need to know. Does Robert SEE that?
Nope. If he does, he chooses to ignore it or name it something
else to avoid hitting it head-on.
CH> Does he SEE IT? In one sentace he states it's not for him to
CH> interfere, and in the next... hmm.... so why doesn't he mind his own
CH> beeswax? Does homosexuality somehow impringe on Robert's own
CH> rationally founded personal happiness? Why? How?
Perhaps with others wrapped in his Alpha Male syndrome, it hits
just a little too close to the ol' home front.
ML> Nice set of values you got there, bucko.
ML> RS> until and unless it
ML> RS> affects someone whom I'm
ML> RS> responsible for.
CH> Robert needs to know he is ultimately responsible for only, himself.
Which he cannot do and yet he still has the hubris to attempt
it on others.
Sheesh.
ML> But still you sit there all smug and smarmy, glowering down
ML> from your supposed moral high-horse on all those dirty queers.
ML> People like you make me rejoice that I'm an atheist.
ML> RS> If it doesn't affect these, then,
ML> RS> as Benny Hill says: "I think that
ML> RS> Lebanese and homosapiens should be
ML> RS> left to their own devices, really
ML> RS> I do".
ML> Your attempt (and failure) at humor does nothing to mask the
ML> repugnance of your post.
CH> I'm so happy I noticed that all by myself. Good example. Thank you.
Bobo's of the "Well, I can't refute it, so I'll misdirect it by
acting inane" school of debate.
... The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|Sub: Thanks again
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:45:00
EID:8a89 622f65a0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> Quoting Wayne Chirnside to Judith Bandsma <=-
WC> Update on the dogs teeth.
WC> Spankys teeth are now remarkably clean, I'm
WC> forever in your debt.
WC> Those turkey necks really did the trick and
WC> I'm somewhat astounded at how really clean his teeth are.
WC> Maybe science ought to look at putting this enzyme
WC> into people toothpaste.
Somehow, an advert for "Pepsodent: now with turkey neck enzyme"
just doesn't seem to work....
... The first thing I do each day is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ALL
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:46:00
EID:375c 622f65c0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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-=> Quoting John Wilson to Cindy Haglund <=-
JW> I have nothing to contribute to a discussion
By their own words shall ye know them.
... It is far safer to be feared than loved - Machiavelli 1532
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:47:00
EID:ba53 622f65e0
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-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Ross Sauer <=-
RS> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RLS> I believe that homosexuality is
RLS> wrong. I believe that it is a sin
RLS> against God, and unnatural. I do
RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and
RS> sinning against God?"
RS> I don't know of any animals having
RS> homosexual sex; but, to sin requires
RS> the knowledge that it IS a sin, and
RS> a CHOICE to commit that sin. Animals
RS> are incapable of sin.
Humans are animals, therefore sin must not exist.
Next?
RS> And what evidence do you have that homosexuality is
RS> a "sin?" Specifically.
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS> requests...
Yeah, we're like that. We don't let idiotic claims go
unchallenged.
RLS> If it doesn't affect these, then,
RLS> as Benny Hill says: "I think that
RLS> Lebanese and homosapiens should be
RLS> left to their own devices, really
RLS> I do".
RS> Hill was a comedian, and he was making a joke.
RS> And, I thought it funny enough to
RS> repeat it. (Many times.)
Of course you do. You've never experienced an original thought
before, why should you now?
... "Life has been better since I excepted Jesus" - jonny vee
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:48:00
EID:ba53 622f6600
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-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Sue Alexander <=-
>> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RS> I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I believe that it is a sin
RS> against God, and unnatural. I do not like to see it, as it makes me
RS> very uncomfortable.
RS> I believe that, as with any sin, it is up to the individual(s)
RS> to correct the behavior, or else accept the consequences in the
RS> afterlife. It is not for me to interfere, until and unless it
RS> affects someone whom I'm responsible for.
SA> So, what would happen if your daughter or son would bring a
SA> same-sex partner home to meet you? It could happen if you have
SA> children.
RS> My son brought home a girl of another
RS> race. We were not comfortable with the
RS> situation,
So, you're a bigot and a homosexualphobe.
And a shining example of Christianity.
... The only thing I hate more than bigots are minority groups.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: MARTY LEIPZIG
|To: ROBERT SAYRE
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:49:00
EID:a8ec 622f6620
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 6f9f9b4b
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Robert Sayre to Martin Goldberg <=-
MG> Oh it's of great value. when you recieve it, please reply
MG> here in the echo your thoughts on the thing.
RS> It is a very sad image.
RS> My first thought was how people
RS> can allow this. My second thought
RS> was: What did the cameraman do for
RS> this little one? Anything?
Cameraman? Hell, he's just a mere mortal. What the hell's he
supposed to do when your God is the one that set it up in the
first place and does nothing to alleviate the situation?.
... What are these churches if not the tombs and sphinchters of God?
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: Richard Plinston
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 17 Jan 01 12:33:38
EID:309e 62316420
MSGID: 3:772/1.0 3a6639e2
REPLY: 1:393/9005.221 3a6027ab
MG> Atheism is a logical deducation that no gods exist
MG> since there seems to be evidence to show that they do
MG> exist.
I also view it that there are claims for thousands of different
gods. In most cases these are mutually exclusive, that is
if one religion were actually true then most of the others
must be wrong and invalid (just as the pope recently claimed:
everyone else is wrong).
Most who believe in just one god (or two or three depending
on how they count them/him) deny the existence of the
thousands of other gods (or reinterpretations). It is a
simple step to accept that _all_ the denials are correct
and believe in just one fewer 'gods' than the theists.
ie all the theists are right, but only in their denials
of the other theists.
MG> I will state again that a god that exists while
MG> guys pick of kids inside a church, is either:
MG> 1. Powerless
MG> 2. Nonexistant
3. Irrelevant
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Richard Plinston
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 17 Jan 01 12:53:26
EID:1619 623166a0
MSGID: 3:772/1.0 3a663e86
REPLY: 1:393/9005.30 3a6106a2
GD> So, you love homosexuals. Which one are you married to?
RS> You seem to have a very limited list of
RS> possibilities. Why are there only these
RS> extremes?
GD> So, you sometimes love them and then sometimes hate them?
You appear to think that 'love' and 'hate' are the only
options for this particular emotion. Most have these
as extremes on a line that also goes through: indifference,
acceptance, like, dislike, in many degrees and combinations.
You must have a very empty life (compared to me or others) if
there is such a large gap in your emotions such that only the
extremes exist for you.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Silly fundy...
|Date: 15 Jan 01 16:39:53
EID:9ab6 622f84e0
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
First the fundy said:
>>> The point was that it was as impossible to provide
>>> evidence for the existance of God as It is to
>>> provide evidence for the existance of love.
Then, when presented with evidence that love exists, including a list of
some of the chemicals known to be involved in producing it, the fundy
constructs a strawman:
> If you really think that chemicals are what love
> is, that knowing `many' of the chemicals involved
> explains love, I really feel sorry for you.
No one asked for an explanation of love, no one claimed that chemicals _are_
love.
Earlier the fundy had attempted to claim that the list of chemicals was
not
evidence because it wasn't _all_ the chemicals.
The fundy is shown to be just a garden-variety liar who can't stand that
his
first claim was disproven, so he tries to pretend it was actually some other
claim that wasn't addressed. No big surprises here.
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Steve Kemp
|Sub: Re: big bang shit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 16:53:20
EID:1108 622f86a0
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From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Steve Kemp
(posted TO: Steve Kemp)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Steve Kemp
Major reply via email, assuming the address from the digest I receive works.
>> Uh, Steve, you're being anal retentive.
> How so?
You quoted it yourself:
1.
>> I specifically spelled out several
>> times exactly what I meant by "dark
>> matter" in my answer --
> I know.
2.
>> Furthermore, since Wayne stated that he
>> "didn't buy" dark matter, I had to assume
>> that he was _not_ referring to mere
>> non-radiating baryonic matter,
> Well, that's a good point.
3.
>> Finally, since "hot dark matter" in the
>> form of neutrinos has been detected
>> (and, if they have sufficient mass,
>> could even be sufficient to close the
>> universe by themselves), I would
>> assume that Wayne is referring solely
>> to more exotic forms of non-baryonic
>> dark matter such as WIMPS, axions, shadow
>> matter, cosmic strings, etc.
> Dig. Via his context that would seem to be the
> case.
And then you ignore the definition from the man who coined the phrase.
Sheesh.
Like I said, anal retentive.
And your repetetive faith statement regarding the inapplicability of entropy
to recycling universes without a shred of reasoning to back it up, and your
repetition of your misunderstanding of what entropy is (not the amount of
energy, the amount of disequilibrium, Steve), I'll just leave out.
If you want to talk about it, fine. If you only want to rant, never mind.
Doesn't much matter to me. A pleasant discussion concerning the topic in
the appropriate place is always welcome. Anal retentive one-upsmanship
tends to bore me after a while.
Hec
http://www.hectorplasmic.com
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Still don't get "free will"
|Date: 15 Jan 01 17:43:39
EID:0ef3 622f8d60
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
>>> Wouldn't it be more likely that He would want some
>>> unpredictability, if for nothing else but amusement?
>> That would mean he isn't omniscient.
> He would simply be blocking that aspect of His
> ability, to whatever extent He wanted, for
> whatever time period He wanted, concerning
> whatever He wanted.
Which would mean he wasn't omniscient. And the effect causes
"steamrolling." For example, to not know if I killed Mary Jane or not,
he'd
have to block knowledge of when Mary Jane died and what she did with the
rest of our life after our encounter. Your local wino would know lots of
things God didn't. Silly.
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Silly shit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 17:50:32
EID:92ea 622f8e40
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> No other god but the one of the Bible has
> ever validated him/herself to me, so why
> would I have any concern/interest in the
> others?
Do you still drive the same car you started out driving, George? Same make
and model, even?
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Nut and honey
|Date: 15 Jan 01 17:58:50
EID:53e6 622f8f40
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> Dark Matter is a theory. You might want to
> posit that "god" is just as good a theory,
> but most scientists don't want to theorize
> god.
The problem is that "gods dunnit" has no explanatory power, and can't be
falsified. It's not that scientists don't _want_ to theorize a god so much
as no one has yet figured out how to concoct a scientific theory that
involves one.
For example, let's say we hypothesize that god is responsible for the
universe existing in the state in which we observe it -- it is that way
because god wanted it that way. If it were in some other state, what would
the hypothesis say? That it was in _that_ state because god wanted it
_that_ way. You can't make predictions with such a hypothesis, so you can't
turn it into a scientific theory.
Hec
http://www.hectorplasmic.com
---
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:51:59
EID:e889 622f9660
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From: Blanche Nonken
X-Ftn-To: Martin Goldberg
(posted TO: Martin Goldberg)
FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
> FTN-Posted-By: Martin Goldberg
> (posted TO: Blanche Nonken)
>
>
> BN> I save the chicken fat for pie crusts. No, really. None
> BN> of that Crisco shit. Plain, unflavored rendered chicken fat
> BN> makes the _best_ pie crusts.
>
> Pot pies?
Those too - but if you render it right, you don't get any "chickeny"
flavor in the fat. Just the pure fat itself. No, I make apple pies
with 'em.
---
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Holy shit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:56:05
EID:0e80 622f9700
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From: Blanche Nonken
X-Ftn-To: Martin Goldberg
(posted TO: Martin Goldberg)
FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
> FTN-Posted-By: Martin Goldberg
> (posted TO: Blanche Nonken)
>
>
> BN> A friend has highly recommended the new art film "Quill."
>
> I've not heard of this epic.
>
> BN>
>
> Uh, oh.....
>
> I recall yoko Ono's great Opus called "Smile" which fetured 8 hours of
Joun
> Lennon smiling.
No, this is more...historical. Um, a biographical piece on a French
nobleman, I think.
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Intesting tidbit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 19:17:47
EID:492c 622f9a20
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
Thursday January 11 9:20 AM ET
Moon Eclipse Sparks Unrest
MAIDUGURI, Nigeria (Reuters) - Rampaging Muslims burned down scores of
hotels and bars in a northern Nigerian city in reaction to the lunar eclipse
which they blamed on sinners, residents said on Wednesday.
Paramilitary police battled gangs of Muslim youths in the streets of the
largely Islamic city of Maiduguri for hours on Tuesday night.
Residents said at least 40 hotels or drinking houses were set ablaze.
Similar violence was reported in Barma town 80 km (50 miles) away where
youths chanting Allahu Akbar (God is Greatest) took to the streets.
``The immoral acts committed in these places are responsible for this
eclipse,'' police quoted a youth leader as saying.
Police chief Uba Bala Ringim told Reuters in Maiduguri that five people
had
been detained and more arrests were expected.
Religious violence has been a major problem in the largely Islamic north
over the past year. Hundreds of people were killed in two bouts of
Muslim-Christian bloodletting in the northern city of Kaduna over plans
to
introduce Islamic sharia law in the area.
---
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|From: Rachel Veraa
|To: Cindy Haglund
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 18:51:00
EID:5879 62309660
MSGID: 1:135/907.0 a64def30
TID: GE 1.2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
In a message to RACHEL VERAA, Cindy Haglund wrote:
RV> RV> Huh? The diaspora was the dispersion of Jewish communities throughout
RV> RV> the ancient world that began with Nebuchadnezzar's capture of Jerusalem
RV> RV> in 596 B.C. It received its greatest impetus with the next destruction
RV> RV> of the temple in the Jewish War of 70 A.D.
CH> No disrepsect intended Rachel but I wonder a lot what it is about
CH> the Bible; something written thousands of years ago, that holds so
CH> much interest still over so many people; defending the right to
CH> ignorance and all... god'... > Maybe I might try to think of it as one might
CH> Shakespeare.
That's exactly it. We still read the bible just as we read the stories
of
Pandora, or Prometheus, or Dedalus and Icarus... or Macbeth, or Othello,
or
Romeo and Juliet, These mythic stories resonate with something in the
human condition that makes them practically a part of our species.
CH> A work of art? It seems that is what the Bible is more than
CH> anything. Nobody really 'follows' it as intended, by the MEN who
CH> WROTE it...
Religion itself is a work of art. People choose religions for esthetic
reasons (which is why faith is impervious to logic or reason).
N'a pale pi ta,
Rachel
http://www.netside.net/~rveraa/
--- BirdEd 1.04
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:32:52
EID:111c 62308c00
MSGID: 1:170/501 6324f06a
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3a638a50
On (15 Jan 01) Don Martin wrote to Karl Schneider...
DM> Karl Schneider said "Biblical contradictions" to Robert Sayre, adding:
RS> Yet, she inferred that there IS
RS> evidence. That's the position that
RS> I wanted her to justify.
RS> If colored eggs are the evidence,
RS> religious artifacts are evidence,
RS> too.
KS> Oh, man, this is TOO funny. Please think about what you wrote.
KS> Please.
DM> Mr. "Connect _WHAT_ dots?" actually _think_ about what
DM> he has written? You are almost funnier than he is.
Yeah, I know. But then, I'm -trying- to be. giggle.
... Appleton: A turd floating in the gene pool.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Zwicky
|Date: 15 Jan 01 14:27:00
EID:f77f 622f7360
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d0
REPLY: 1:102/125.99 d9aa2eee
MK> "Zwicky had a difficult personality, and intentionally
MK> intimidated his quiet colleague Baade. Zwicky was also fond
MK> of calling people 'spherical bastards,' because they were
MK> bastards every way he looked at them. He used to prowl the
MK> halls of the astronomy building at Caltech (Robinson
MK> Hall), accosting unfamiliar students with the interrogation
MK> 'Who the hell are you!?'"
ROTFL! Shows what the system of tenure does for us.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 14:45:27
EID:8873 622f75a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d1
REPLY: 1:205/40 f14c359d
MG>>> Why do some christians hate homosexuals?
RS>> You'd have to ask THEM.
MG>> But, I'm asking YOU.
RS> But, I don't know. How could I?
You claim to be a christian. Why do christians hate homosexuals?
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 14:46:08
EID:8873 622f75c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d2
REPLY: 1:205/40 36d847ae
RS> I don't know of any animals having
RS> homosexual sex; but, to sin requires
Many do. It's a common biological fact.
RS> the knowledge that it IS a sin, and
RS> a CHOICE to commit that sin. Animals
RS> are incapable of sin.
So do homosexuals have a choice to be what they are?
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 14:48:44
EID:f738 622f7600
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d3
REPLY: 1:205/40 e2e40720
LP>> Just where do you think that all of the colored eggs come
LP>> from, Robert? Or, is there a more rational explanation for
LP>> the phenomenon?
RS> It is known.
A terse answer for a fairly complex question. is there a more rational
explanation for any fairy story?
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 14:54:38
EID:a746 622f76c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d4
REPLY: 1:205/40 08524455
RS>> "In His image" does not equal "exact replica".
RS>> As for the differences and the similarities, I
MG>> Then how do you know that it does not mean "exact relica".
RS> Because, if that were the case, it
RS> would have been stated; and, we'd have
RS> the ability to perform miracles,
RS> amongst other things.
But you claim not to know the "mind of god" on the matter. You also claim
not to know precisely what "in his image " means. so now, you go out and
pull this out of the air. Your claim that "in his image" does not mean
"exact replica" is debunked. After all, you've sat here claiming not to
know all these last few days and now, suddenly you seem to know, Which
is it?
RS>> When I say that my brother was dead,
RS>> and came back to life during Last Rites,
RS>> it is met with the response that he must
RS>> not have truely been dead.
MG>> Occam's Razor. the simplest explanation is usually the
MG>> right one. Dead people do not come back to life. If this
MG>> happened, then he wasn't really dead.
RS> IOW, a miracle can't happen because
RS> miracles can't happen.
Miracles that intervene in the laws of nature have no evidence of occuring.
There is no trace of physical evidence of OT or NT miracles. there is none
today of modern miracles. Your experience with your brother would indicate
one thing only...he was never dead.
RS> It is a very sad image.
Sure it is. where is your god to help this child? what great plan does
he have to starve this kid to death. Again, the answers that are possible
are:
1. Powerless god
2. Nonexistant god.
RS> was: What did the cameraman do for
RS> this little one? Anything?
He did intervene although I am not sure what the nature of it was.
RS> I ask how people can allow this,
RS> because governments will not allow
RS> food and supplies to be given to
RS> people like these. The food gets to
Politics cost lives, but if your god was a big enough man, he might want
to transgress political boundaries for the sake of a starving child. Guess
he isn't.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Silly fundy...
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:05:05
EID:032c 622f78a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d5
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a610340
JW> And it ain't chemicals. If you really think that chemicals
JW> are what love is, that knowing `many' of the chemicals
JW> involved explains love, I really feel sorry for you.
JW> Hope you learn better.
Doubtful. the evidence was presented to you and now you simply run away
screaming "IS NOT".
If you desire, I can provide you with a gigabyte or so of bibliography onthe
subject. You want to read S.A. and drool over articles on cosmology? why
won't you do the same with biochemistry?
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:12:05
EID:22f6 622f7980
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d6
REPLY: 1:18/140 01e89916
RS> You bet!
RS> Made with fresh chicken, garden vegetables, yummmmm!!!!!
I never developed a taste for pot pies. My grandmother used to make them
for us when we were kids, but I just never did quite get on the bandwagon.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:13:41
EID:7079 622f79a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d7
REPLY: 1:18/140 9b66c7a7
MG>>After that, in new York, Pabst became known as "the beer
MG>>that made Mel Fame' walk us."
RS> Hee hee!
RS> Good one!
Old one too.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: Holy shit
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:14:18
EID:2e98 622f79c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d8
REPLY: 1:18/140 552a0dc8
MG>>mother finally took the chold out of the theater so we could
MG>>watch in peace. Used to be that theaters had "crying rooms"
MG>>for noisy kids where parents could take
MG>>them.
RS> If it was up to me, I'd make it illegal to take any kids to
RS> the theater that are under 4.
RS> They're too stupid at that age to realize that there
RS> actually ARE people there who want to watch the movie, not
RS> give the brat dirty looks.
I think that kids should be given the opportunity to see movies. that's
part of being a kid. It's up to the parents to discipline or take appropriate
action when the kid is unruly or a disurbance.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Ross Sauer
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:15:58
EID:386a 622f79e0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308d9
REPLY: 1:18/140 deefc2fe
RS> I actually tried tequila a few weeks ago, blech.
Tequila is only good when mixed. Shots don't cut it. Margaritas should
have enough triple sec or somesuch to makethem refreshing on a hot day.
I only went to bartcop once...to view the shots of our favorite radio show
host.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:20:26
EID:15aa 622f7a80
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308da
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a62f338
JW>> Well sure! And so does being an
JW>>> Esoteric Christian, mystic, believer in Magick,
JW>>> panentheist, old fart, whatever label you wish....
MG>> Sometimes not. I see a lot of "god will provide a ram"
MG>> rationale.
JW> A different can of worms. Bad theology. Pitiful hope.
JW> To teach/preach such is unforgivable.
I don't think so. Pitiful hope and trust in a god go hand in hand. Deists
as a whole believe that they should live their life to the best of their
ability and they weill be rewarded. I believe that no matter what I do,
thee will be nothing left when I go. If I ever have grandchildren, when
they are dead, I'm forgotten. Utterly. You have to learn to accept that.
MG>> I need no god to do anything
MG>> for me.
JW> I believe this is true. Just being part of the thin film of
JW> life on this planets surface is all that is needed.
And so where does a god fit intot his scheme?
JW> Where in science does the concept "rejoice" reside?
JW> Yeah, yeah, endorphins, sure...
Beta endorphins and some others. You enjoy life, as much as your biochemistry
allows. You live for the moment of your life, planning for your death and
your future until that time arrives. that's all there is. There is no
evidence that there is anything else.
JW> Life's meaning purpose and enjoyment is found more in
JW> poetry than in science...
JW> Not that poetry is so primal but that science leaves such a
JW> Void.
Science esplains a good many things like love, but is not the topic of the
origianl discussion. hec claimed that there is evidence for chmicals that
mediate the neural reactions that we call love. You might want love to
be something more. you have yet to provide evidence that it is anything
more. do you want to ascribe it to a god, a soul, a spirit? Even with
your self proclaimed "there is no evidence for any of the above" it does
not make it any more satisfying.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Fundy lies
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:29:06
EID:caa1 622f7ba0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308db
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a62d7bc
MG>> Here is where you go fundy on us. The dats is that love
MG>> and other emotions are caused by chemicals.
JW> And will, control, choice is totally absent? *Random*
JW> interactions 'twixt chemicals?
Still fundy. Control and choice are also controlled by the genetics of
neurons. Where do you think that these come from? Thin air. then you
go on to discuss "random interactions between chemcials". No such thing.
All chemical reactions are highly specific. or do you want to claim that
these chemicals have emotions too which is why the randomly interact?
JW> *explained* then it is my turn to pity you, Marty. What
JW> little choice we have in the world in this life is what
JW> makes us human. We *are*, for fleeting moments, human.
JW> For how things work, science
JW> For why, poetry.
JW> Or religion.
Our chemistry makes us what we are. Do you want to claim that we pull our
humanity out of the air, that it has no specific origin?
MG>> Besides, whether they cause love or not is not important.
MG>> they exist and they have evidence that they do exist, unlike
MG>> a god of any description.
JW> Wow. Your argument is on the level of saying that Gods must
JW> exist because I can see His temples, observe thew
JW> worshipers, accept their testimony. It wont work. Any more
JW> than your structures.
Without evidence of chemicals, I would have difficulty believing in their
existance. Likewise with a god.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 15:35:43
EID:0a25 622f7c60
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a6308dc
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a62dec8
MG>> I think you have misunderstood. Deists of all stripes are
MG>> the targets here.
JW> I understand that. I don't mind being a "target".
Yet you have before objected to being one.
JW> MG You may try to show the mantle of reason, but this
MG>> does not mean that you are just another deist with no
MG>> evidence for his god.
JW> I think you missed a "not" in your sentence.
I don't see where. You have no evidence for a god. No matter what stripe
of deist you are, that does not change.
JW> Of *course* it dosn't! As I-readily-admit. Actually I
JW> *don't admit, I *insist* that God is not evidence-able; If
JW> She were the evidence would be a part of science which does
JW> not interface with religion. Nor does (my) religion deny any
JW> fact, theory, or law of science.
If there is no evidence for your god, it would be difficult to show that
it has anything to do with you. Better to know the truth any day. Use
the laws of evidence to show that a god either exists or is impossible to
demonstrate. I think that we've already done the laater.
MG>> question. Whether it is worthwhile to believe in any sort
MG>> of god is on trial here.
JW> It's not really a trial though, braying for evidence is not
JW> a trial, and I've yet to read any atheist here who thinks
JW> it a trial, just a place for scorn, contempt for views other
JW> than one's own, and, weirdly, a place where
Sure it is. What is a trial but evidence? perhaps the evidence of a courtroom
differs from that of a lab, but the concept is the same. You must show
evidence to back your beliefs or we have to take you with a grain of salt.
JW> Still interesting. Why one would be proud to disbelieve in
JW> anything is new to me. Or to believe that atheism is somehow
JW> a superior view of the universe, life. Neither Atheists
JW> *nor* Christians seem to rise above the crowd when it comes
JW> to noble acts, industriousness, intelligence, or any of
JW> those good qualities.
It is in that knowing that we try to conduct ourselves as the best of christianity
without the threat of eternal retribution if we don't. You see, we don't
need gods with lightening bolts hanging over our heads. We don't need to
believe in a book of mostly fairy stories. We are free to use our minds
in anyw ay we want, including the effort to see past the Big Bang.
JW> I am a marvelous human being not because of my religion and
JW> not in spite of it. It is ironic that religion shouts "Be
JW> awake!" and it puts many/most to sleep. Not really,
JW> most/damn near all are in a state of waking-sleep anyway.
Most religion requires adherance to some dogma or other. there is seldom
evidence for that dogma to be true as it is based on god belief. I don't
see how anyone can anyone can say that religion shouts "Be awake!".
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Linda Pagels
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 23:57:22
EID:9a2a 622fbf20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a638e62
-> On 12 Jan 01 15:02:00, Robert Sayre got back to Linda Pagels
-> Re: Biblical contradictions
RS> your answer. Are you saying that you have
RS> evidence of eggs that came from "the Easter
RS> Bunny"?
LP> Just where do you think that all of the colored eggs come from,
LP> Robert? Or, is there a more rational explanation for the
LP> phenomenon?
RS> It is known.
So, therefore you admit that the Easter Bunny exists!
Sound move on your part.
... Headline: PANDA MATING FAILS; VETERINARIAN TAKES OVER.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Linda Pagels
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Evidence?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 23:58:50
EID:d243 622fbf40
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a638eba
-> On 13 Jan 01 04:57:00, Robert Sayre got back to Linda Pagels
-> Re: Evidence?
RS> I even have photographs of them! Yes! I do!
RS> Now, are these simply a harmless fantasy, or are they real?
RS> If you HAVE them, they must be real
RS> photos and drawings.
LP> Now, are Stephen King's books real because they are not
LP> just in print but made into movies?
RS> Of course. You can hold one in your hand.
Now you are admitting that vampires exist. You are really on
a roll today.
... Loewenhoek out, and someone will bite.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Linda Pagels
|To: George Pope
|Sub: sexuality genetic?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 00:00:01
EID:52da 62300000
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a638f01
-> On 14 Jan 01 10:25:29, George Pope got back to Linda Pagels
-> Re: sexuality genetic?
LP> He can make all of the theological statements that he wants, George.
LP> There are theological statements of many people about quite a
LP> few gods and goddesses. Why do you deny that their gods not
LP> exist while your unfounded god does?
GP> Where did I do either of those? No other god but the one of the Bible
GP> has ever validated him/herself to me, so why would I have any
GP> concern/interest in the others?
That is because you are only listenign to the voices in your
head rather than the true gods.
... Creationists are fossils in their own time.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Anybody not ice this
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:06:42
EID:217c 623008c0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a639ea2
-> On 14 Jan 01 07:16:08, John Wilson got back to Robert Sayre
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS> requests...
JW> They never tire of it...
It's called "learning". You should try that sometime.
... Equal time for Evolutionary Theory in churches!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:09:05
EID:6591 62300920
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a639f31
-> On 12 Jan 01 14:02:00, Robert Sayre got back to Ross Sauer
RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and
RS> sinning against God?"
RS> I don't know of any animals having
RS> homosexual sex; but, to sin requires
RS> the knowledge that it IS a sin, and
RS> a CHOICE to commit that sin. Animals
RS> are incapable of sin.
Man is an animal. Therefore, Man is incapable of sin.
... It's a free will choice, so long as God ordains it.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:12:05
EID:6591 62300980
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a639fe5
-> On 12 Jan 01 14:55:00, Robert Sayre got back to Sue Alexander
RS> My son brought home a girl of another
RS> race. We were not comfortable with the
RS> situation, and we told him why. We told
So, are you black or red? Or, are you yellow or brown?
Now, don't tell me you are actually white!
... "Giving reasons to a bigot is like giving medicine to a dead man"
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:15:30
EID:efbc 623009e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a63a0b2
-> On 14 Jan 01 20:38:00, John Wilson got back to God Dan
RS> I love my sisters and brothers, but I
RS> wouldn't want to live with any of them. :^)
GD> Thus following the tenets of your god tha says you have to
GD> hate them.
JW> Only if you take a saying emphasising contrasts with exaggeration
JW> literally.
Yes, John, browse from the salad bar. Now, just how many more
stories from th bible are yo going to claim are not true?
JW> Sometimes you have to *think* about it.
Let us know when you start doing so.
... "True faith becomes one's reality." Kenny Young
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictio
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:17:46
EID:d181 62300a20
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a63a13a
-> On 12 Jan 01 14:59:00, Robert Sayre got back to God Dan
CJ> Do you really want to teach junior high kids that the universe
CJ> came into being because Ptah jacked off?
RS> I don't think that it should be done
RS> in those words.
GD> Why not?
RS> I think that the idea could be
RS> conveyed in a more tactful way.
Like flooding the earth? Was that tactful?
... Do not try this at home! I am a trained professional fundie handler.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Linda Pagels
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:19:31
EID:9a2a 62300a60
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a63a1a3
-> On 12 Jan 01 16:26:00, Robert Sayre got back to Karl Schneider
-> Re: Biblical contradictions
KS> is uncool and might compromise my own safety") and consider that as
KS> a basis for your decisions.
RS> I don't know that I can separate
RS> conscience out; but, God is more
RS> than just conscience.
Do you have a conscience?
... Pangaea's theme song: "Breaking up is hard to do."
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:21:52
EID:f822 62300aa0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a63a230
-> On 14 Jan 01 07:53:12, John Wilson got back to Wayne Chirnside
WC> Apply the same standards to the bible as to cold fusion and
WC> the bible loses big time.
JW> When it comes to *lasting* the bible wins by a ratio of 12000:1 :-)
Too bad that it loses by 5.5 Billion years.
... Why experiment on animals with so many fundamentalists out there?
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: ROSS SAUER
|Sub: Holy shit
|Date: 16 Jan 01 01:31:08
EID:fac4 62300be0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a63a45c
-> On 14 Jan 01 19:14:00, ROSS SAUER got back to MARTIN GOLDBERG
MG>out of the theater so we could watch in peace. Used to be that
MG>theaters had "crying rooms" for noisy kids where parents could take
MG>them.
RS> If it was up to me, I'd make it illegal to take any kids to the
RS> theater that are under 4.
Depends a bit on the movie. _The Aristocrats_ was fun for my
girlfriend and I to take he neice. Then again, I do think we
liked the movie better than the kid!
... I am Non-conducter of Borg....Prepare to be insulated.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Elizabeth McGuire
|Sub: Re: ...
|Date: 16 Jan 01 15:31:02
EID:66dd 62307be0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a64d9b6
-=> Elizabeth McGuire wrote to Ross Sauer <=-
EM> RE: FUNDY ALERT!!!
EM> Begin Quote
EM> These same areas of the Bible also say that if YOU were raped,
EM> you would have to marry your rapist, that kids who get uppity
EM> should be stoned to death, and that having slaves is JUST fine.
EM> End Quote
EM> Mmm hmm, neither of which I would ever do. I didn't say I
EM> necessarily agree with what I quoted to you. There are a lot of
EM> things in the Bible (and some other religion's texts for that
EM> matter) I have a problem with. I just wanted to back the man up.
EM> Begin Quote
EM> Any of you want to tear at this fresh meat, before I do?
EM> End Quote
EM> HELP!!! He's trying to eat me!
Here, I'll save you, lady...!
Now what was the problem?
He whaaaaat?
Sorry, but this is getting far too obvious, And I certainly
would not besmirch this echo nor offend the high-toned
Ladies and Gentelmen participating here, with an obviousness
that high minds wouldn't lower themselves to notice.
... Dogs think they're human, but cats think they're gods.
___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 15:54:04
EID:bb00 62307ec0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a64df1c
-=> SALLY SPRINGETT wrote to ROBERT SAYRE <=-
RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and sinning
RS> against God?"
RS> I don't know of any animals having homosexual sex; but, to sin
RS> requires the knowledge that it IS a sin, and a CHOICE to
RS> commit that sin. Animals are incapable of sin.
SS> So you annoint a human being to define homosexuality as a "sin,"
Sorta like Adam naming the animals...
"Adam why did you name that animal a `lion'"?
"Well, it looked more like a lion than anything else...."
...but sure! Once you invent "sin", it's like sticky-tape: you
can put it *anywhere*
SS> It's easy to see why they call the kind of argument that explains
SS> the crueler workings of unreason "apologetics."
..and describing it is called "history" :-|
Regards...
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:33:00
EID:578f 622f9420
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PID: FM+ 2.26.SW SW0000D2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
CODEPAGE: 437
-=>> Quoting Robert Sayre to Don Martin <=-
SM>>> Either come up with evidence we will accept, Robert,
SM>>> or admit that your God does not exist, never has
SM>>> existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
RS>> Here's the quote that tells me to
RS>> denounce God. It was in one of your
JB> I see your problem. Please note how that is worded. You see, that's
JB> a message to you from Sean.
JB> Sean is NOT an atheist, which I'm sure you think he is.
Actually, I -am- an atheist -- with respect to Robert's God, only. :-)
I don't care whether or not Vishnu exists. Or Baba Yaga. Or Oomgawabwani.
It's just that Abrahamic SOB that I'm atheistic towards. None of the others
demand that I -obey them-.
slack -- s.
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Steve Kemp
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 18:32:00
EID:fea5 622f9400
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CODEPAGE: 437
RS>>SM>> Either come up with evidence we will accept, Robert,
RS>>SM>> or admit that your God does not exist, never has
RS>>SM>> existed, never will exist, and CAN not exist.
RS>> Here's the quote that tells me to
RS>>denounce God.
SK> Nope.
SK> Here's an analogy....
SK> Let's say you believe that there is an invisible and untouchable apple
SK> on a table you and I are sitting at. An apple you only believe is there,
SK> one that even you can't see or touch.
SK> Show that it exists or admit that it doesn't. OR admit that your belief
SK> is baseless at best.
SK> That isn't a case of demanding that you denounce apples.
SK> It's a case of you being required to demonstrate that your mystical
SK> apple exists....for if you can't do so, even to yourself, then it
SK> doesn't.
SK> Meaning there is no reason to believe it does.
SK> In short, it's a challenge.
The McCullough Challenge, to be precise.
:)
slack -- s.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 11:53:24
EID:25cc 622f5ea0
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a64ee8c
REPLY: 1:393/9005.221 3a5721fd
-=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Curtis Johnson <=-
CJ> It's been a few years since I've seen it, but in hardcover
CJ> there's "Science Citation Index." Only better university
CJ> libraries are likely to have it, though. No idea of they
CJ> have any I-net presence.
MG> The levelof information on a strictly bibliographical level these days
MG> changes at a log rate by the day. No hard copy dealie would be ble
to
MG> keep up with it. I think that our library's mednet search service is
MG> by subscription only. If Dale wants, I'll be happy to compile the
MG> revised bibliography of yours truly and post it here.
Notice how he's made himself scarce?
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 15 Jan 01 11:55:20
EID:b445 622f5ee0
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GD> Appleton...
CJ> Don't ever let him know that you have a physical disability.
JW> I'm curious: why? Does he think that it's a punishment from God?
Something along those lines. He doesn't think any disease
is cause by micro-organisms. He also gets very nasty and personal
if he knows that about you. Fortunately, he's so over the top
about it that I wager most recipients soon realize that they are much
healthier than he is.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:06:36
EID:2bd6 622f60c0
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CJ> The Babylonians used 3.0. 22/7 (3.18) was found to be servicable
GD> Bzzzt! 3.1428...
CJ> 22/7 is 3.18. . . Check it out.
KS> Umph....22/7 = 3.142857143...
And I'd divided by hand twice, too. . .
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:09:14
EID:dc1a 622f6120
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KS> 2Pb + S2 + (H2O)2 -> Au ?
ML> FeS2.
GD> There's no '2' in ferrous sulfide.
CJ> There is in iron disulfide, aka iron pyrite, aka "fool's
CJ> gold," hence Marty's joke.
GD> Don't you hate a smart-ass?
CJ> Hey, I was a member of that club!
KS> Me too! What the hell happened to the minutes of the last meeting?
I think some dumb-ass lost them.
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|From: Curtis Johnson
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 12:11:18
EID:20eb 622f6160
PID: BWMAX2 3.20 [Reg]
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CJ> The Babylonians used 3.0. 22/7 (3.18) was found to be servicable
GD> Bzzzt! 3.1428...
CJ> 22/7 is 3.18. . . Check it out.
GD> Lets see:
GD> ...... ^
GD> I do think I'll stand at my resultant... Close, but not quite Pi
GD> Care for a cream or chocolate one?
Paying me back for correcting you on your chemistry, I see. . .
CJ> (Most of this comes from the oldie but goodie, _Mathematics for
CJ> the Million_, Lancelot Hogben.)
GD> Sounds interesting... Is a text book or something along the
GD> essay-type books Asimov wrote?
CJ> More along the lines of his non-essay science books
CJ> (_Understanding Physics_, _Intelligent Layman's Guide to the Physical
CJ> Sciences_, etc.) except for math.
GD> I'll look for it. ITMT, use a calculator not based on Windows
GD> and/or Pentium technology. ;)
ITMT? Oh, In The Mean Time.
I was using my head. I guess that shows my wetware's just a
chip off the old silicon block. "I'm just a poor
wafaring stranger. . ."
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ELIZABETH MCGUIRE
|Sub: FUNDY ALERT!
|Date: 17 Jan 01 00:39:00
EID:0940 623104e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 4ddbbf13
TZUTC: -0500
ELIZABETH MCGUIRE said to ROSS SAUER:
EM> Begin Quote
EM>These same areas of the Bible also say that if YOU were raped, you
EM>would have to marry your rapist, that kids who get uppity should be
EM>stoned to death, and that having slaves is JUST fine.
EM> End Quote
EM>Mmm hmm, neither of which I would ever do. I didn't say I
EM>necessarily agree with what I quoted to you. There are a lot of
EM>things in the Bible (and some other religion's texts for that matter)
EM>I have a problem with. I just wanted to back the man up.
The only thing you "backed up" was his own shit right up his rectum.
EM> Begin Quote
EM>Any of you want to tear at this fresh meat, before I do?
EM> End Quote
EM>HELP!!! He's trying to eat me!
Nah. We just enjoy ripping fundys to shreds in our bloodlust.
The meat in a fundy is uneatable, due to it being so full of shit.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 17 Jan 01 00:40:00
EID:f7dd 62310500
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
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MARTY LEIPZIG said to JOHN WILSON:
ML> -=> Quoting John Wilson to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> -=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
ML>
ML>
ML> ML> "Know thy audience."
ML> JW> As if you come close.
ML> 10 in the orange.
ML> We've got you pegged.
More like impaled.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 17 Jan 01 00:50:00
EID:a7da 62310640
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 186b378b
TZUTC: -0500
MARTY LEIPZIG said to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
ML> -=> Quoting Martin Goldberg to Marty Leipzig <=-
ML> MG>> Do you fill the house with the aroma of distilling
ML> MG>> corncobs?
ML> ML> Only as much as you fill yours with the redolence of
ML> ML> rotting compost and loch water.
ML> MG> Along with the bouquet of the finest tht the Honduras has to
ML> offer.
ML> Next thing you know, you'll be sprinkling incest all over the
ML> place to cover the aroma.
I was at a Mexican restaurant/bar just yesterday, waiting for a friend
of mine.
While I was waiting, the bartender, (a decent friendly guy) asked me if
I wanted to try something good.
He called it a "Coco Loco."
He split a coconut in half, somehow only spilling a tiny bit of the
milk.
He put a shot of tequila in the milk, (which BTW was served in the
coconut half), and squeezed a little of a fresh lime in it.
I tried it, said "YUMMMMMMM!!!!!" and bought two more while waiting for
my friend.
You, (and anyone else here) has to try it sometime.
It's damm good!
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 17 Jan 01 00:51:00
EID:f555 62310660
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 82c70bcd
TZUTC: -0500
MARTY LEIPZIG said to BLANCHE NONKEN:
ML> > What? Just because your heart does the Cha-Cha every time you
ML> > see a couple of women or men holding hands, that's a reason
ML> > to ridicule, loathe and despise that group?
ML> BN> Odds are ( and I'll bet) it's not women doing (as a friend put
ML> BN> it on another ng) "lickey-lickey" that twitches him so
ML> BN> discomfitingly.
ML> It's hilarious. He's proclaiming all sorts of things about sex
ML> and I'd wager a case of Toohey's KB Lager he's got as much
ML> experience in that particular arena as Stevie Wonder does with
ML> driving Indy cars.
Reminds me of Timmy's sick fantasies about gays.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: John Wilson
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 23:59:00
EID:0d16 6230bf60
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6550c4
-=> God Dan wrote to John Wilson <=-
-> On 14 Jan 01 20:38:00, John Wilson got back to God Dan
RS> I love my sisters and brothers, but I
RS> wouldn't want to live with any of them. :^)
GD> Thus following the tenets of your god tha says you have to
GD> hate them.
JW> Only if you take a saying emphasising contrasts with exaggeration
JW> literally.
GD> Yes, John, browse from the salad bar. Now, just how many more
GD> stories from th bible are yo going to claim are not true?
Try me. It's *my* salid bar.
JW> Sometimes you have to *think* about it.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 17 Jan 01 01:45:02
EID:2d64 62310da0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a65699e
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG>> I think you have misunderstood. Deists of all stripes are
MG>> the targets here.
JW> I understand that. I don't mind being a "target".
MG> Yet you have before objected to being one.
Yes, I guess I once did. I enjoy being a target for ideas and concepts,
but personal attacks took a little getting used to.
I was surprised at the discussion of people in posts not to them, crudity
not heard since army days, being called things that made me reach for
m' shootin' iron...
It was because I thought the conversations here would be serious
have point; pithy with purchase...and not be so readily given to
misunderstandings...
JW> MG You may try to show the mantle of reason, but this
MG>> does not mean that you are just another deist with no
MG>> evidence for his god.
JW> I think you missed a "not" in your sentence.
MG> I don't see where. You have no evidence for a god. No
MG> matter what stripe of deist you are, that does not change.
True. ("Does not mean that you are just" I thought
should have been "Does not mean that you are not just another deist....)
...for I am just another deist, with no evidence.
MG> If there is no evidence for your god, it would be difficult to
MG> show that it has anything to do with you.
I suppose that it would. I have no desire to try.
Evidence, knowledge and understanding are three
separate distinct concepts. Experience is not easily communicatable
even when possible.
MG> Better to know the
MG> truth any day.
Do you really think there is evidence for all truth?
MG> ...You must show evidence to back your beliefs or
MG> we have to take you with a grain of salt.
Well, sure! Ah, this generation wants a `sign'.
Got no sign. I heal no sick. And my beliefs?
Yes, of course: cum magno graino salis.
--------------
MG> ... I don't see how anyone can anyone can
MG> say that religion shouts "Be awake!".
Oft implored in the NT. A basic tennant of Mahayana Buddhism.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Silly fundy...
|Date: 17 Jan 01 01:54:04
EID:7f27 62310ec0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a656bbc
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
JW> And it ain't chemicals. If you really think that chemicals
JW> are what love is, that knowing `many' of the chemicals
JW> involved explains love, I really feel sorry for you.
JW> Hope you learn better.
MG> Doubtful. the evidence was presented to you and now you
MG> simply run away screaming "IS NOT".
No. A list of chemicals was offered as an explanation for Love.
Translating chemical reactions to feelings, the mechanism for this,
is not the evidence offered.
MG> If you desire, I can provide you with a gigabyte or so of
MG> bibliography onthe subject. You want to read S.A. and
MG> drool over articles on cosmology? why won't you do the
MG> same with biochemistry?
When S.A. has an issue devoted to it, I will!
There are, after all, only 34,657 subjects in which I am more interested.
(`drool'?)
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Re: Teric.
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:19:06
EID:9a03 62311260
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a65719a
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
ML> I know more than you could or could possibly imagine.
Wow. I think you really believe that. The damndest thing I've read in this
Echo.
You're goning to get a hernia, carrying *that* ego around....
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Re: Teric.
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:34:08
EID:9a03 62311440
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a657520
A compendium of ignorance and lies follows:
JW>> If value is not of scientific interest
MK> One might well view scientific method as a means of ferreting out
MK> value from fields of dross. What John-boy actually means is that
MK> scientific value is not of interest to him, perhaps.
A *really* bad guess.
ML> He has as much as said so, coupled with all his tap dancing
ML> and
ML> his laughable "I demand decency and respectability",
You are pretending to quote me?
ML> whilst
ML> tossing pejoratives around with abandon. He's hilarious,
ML> however untentional it is on his part. Then again,
ML> hypocrisy,
ML> while unpleasant, can be humorous at times, given it's
ML> origination.
Man!
JW>> and atheism introduces a bleakness
JW>> regarding death...
MK> Ah, but he's giving away his real problem there -- he's looking at
MK> "bleakness regarding death" rather than "worthwhile value in life."
Not even close. I know of no one who enjoys life day by day, more than I.
What I meant was: why take pride in kicking a crutch away from a
limping man?
ML> One wonders why they're so damned concerned with the next
ML> life when
ML> they make so precious little of their first.
A conclusive error.
-------------
ML>>>>> Oh, yeah? With which revision of the Bible,
ML>>>>> Qu'ran, Torah, etc?
JW>>>> They are *all* being revised, every day....
ML>>> Sorry, but quite a few billion of very
ML>>> religious, very fundamentalist and very
ML>>> deluded people disagree with you.
JW>> Oh they may now, but few are up to the world.
JW>> Change comes faster and faster...
> Only religion is still stuck in the stasis of
> immutability.
Some people are. Religion isn't.
MK> John-boy's just telling you that his religion is better than theirs.
ML> As he condecendingly peers down his proboscis.
Well, I am pretty satisfied with my religion. If that is condescending
so be it.
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:41:10
EID:5df6 62311520
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6576c6
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
JW> Dissing Scientific American
JW> is a hi-toned put-down. I am really impressed.
ML> It wasn't difficult. I can see how you would be so easily
ML> impressed.
And I can see the difficulty you *do* have: recognising sarcasm.
ML> Enough of your appelations to questionable authorities.
JW> Jeremiah. P. Ostriker (In 2000 he won the U.S. National medal of
JW> Science) And Paul j. Steinhardt, both of Princeton.
ML> Hooray. Princeton must be justifiably proud.
Just providing info from the "About the Authors" squib.
I think probably that Princton, to anthropomorphise an institution,
IS probably, justifiably, proud.
Your `Hooray' is interesting. Revealing, even.
JW> necessary for the theory needs "...almost supenatural fine
JW> tuning..." ...which is probably the closest to `evidence' that science
JW> will come to. :-)
ML> Key word: "almost".
JW> Yep. It motivates their search for alternative theories...
ML> Of which, the "supernatural" in not one, as it's a belief
ML> set
ML> and nowhere near a theory.
Hey, remember the "key word"!
ML> You'd think such illustrous Princtonians would know this.
Holy cow! Read my quote. Read the context! Read with someunderstanding!
That comment betrays a mental shoddyness that doth surprise.
There has been no indication or statement by me that would imply that they
do not.
----------------
JW> for a lerned man, you sure act like a jerk sometimes...)
ML> Yours is no act.
Cute. Oh, I forgot. You don't recognise sarcasm.
-----------
JW>
JW> And no, I'm not looking for evidence nor desire to provide it.
ML> Ah, another mind set in concrete.
My mind is set in the abstract, not the concrete.
Why search for evidence
ML> when
ML> yours already existes between your ears?
Why search for evidence that *cannot* be provided? Nor have any desire
to provide it: in the unlikely event the stars reshape themsselves
into the pattern that reads "Worship me!" (As someone else suggested,)
we'll have evidence. You seem to be asking for a scientific
acertainment of God. Trying to bring religion into the realm of science.
Ain't a gonna be done. To continue to bray the request for evidence
is indictative of the more cement-brained.
----------
Interesting hour program on the Discovery Channel...some researchers are
trying to find out how we `feel' our feelings...dwelt a lot on
an analysis of "love" and though Ox-e-toss-sin was mentioned there seems
to be alooong way to go before love is explained...they went into *my*
point which was that science does not understand the translation of those
chemicals into feelings. Not by a long shot.
Considering your obsrepterous immature fulminations here, I'll
credit Discovery's take on the subject, rather than yours.
(Actually the BBC from a series called "Brainstory" Wish I had picked up
on the names and institutions involved in the studies....)
ML> Ya fucked up the emoticon, tweedles. Guess I must have
ML> pushed
ML> the right buttons to get you so bebothered.
Yep. I was almost too upset to sleep. I would wake up screeming "Why, oh
why
are my smileys rejected?" Its been a BIG concern. Important stuff.
Yep.
JW> The subject was "the
JW> supernatural" a phrase in Scientific American...you missed the
JW> reference. Actually, you miss a lot.
ML> Nope, didn't miss a thing. The prhase "the behemoth has the
ML> sinews of his stones wrapped toigether", which makes about
ML> as
ML> much sense as a supposedly scientific journal nattering on
ML> about the supernatural.
Oh Christ. You really ARE stupid sometimes. "nattering on"
means that you simply haven't paid any attention.
I you are going to insist on being dense, ass, is what I don't give a rat's.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:46:12
EID:54de 623115c0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6577f4
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
JW>> Well sure! And so does being an
JW>>> Esoteric Christian, mystic, believer in Magick,
JW>>> panentheist, old fart, whatever label you wish....
MG>> Sometimes not. I see a lot of "god will provide a ram"
MG>> rationale.
JW> A different can of worms. Bad theology. Pitiful hope.
JW> To teach/preach such is unforgivable.
MG> I don't think so. Pitiful hope and trust in a god go hand in
MG> hand.
What exactly do you mean "trust"? Faith? Hope?
My God is unknowable. I can't trust an entity like that.
I'm trying for a relationship with Her janitor.
Deists as a whole believe that they should live their life
MG> to the best of their ability and they weill be rewarded.
Ok, though I'd of said "are" rather than "will be"
MG I
MG> believe that no matter what I do, thee will be nothing left
MG> when I go.
Gotta firm up what "I" refers to: I believe it's a multiple
thingie, and there's always *something* left...but not.
harp, wings and human consciousness and personality, sez I.
-----------
MG> If I ever have grandchildren, when they are
MG> dead, I'm forgotten. Utterly. You have to learn to accept
MG> that.
Accepted. (Unless I finish my book, which will doubtless echo down
the corridors of time...)
MG>> I need no god to do anything
MG>> for me.
JW> I believe this is true. Just being part of the thin film of
JW> life on this planets surface is all that is needed.
MG> And so where does a god fit intot his scheme?
I do not know. It's turtles (and angels) all the way down.
...but "...all that is needed." does not imply that nothing can be
improved, that nothing *should* be done.
MG> ...You enjoy life, as much
MG> as your biochemistry allows.
I think, with work, it can be improved upon.
The concept "You", considered as a unity is, I think false.
But that's near to a nit-pick...
MG> You live for the moment of
MG> your life, planning for your death and your future until
MG> that time arrives. that's all there is. There is no
MG> evidence that there is anything else.
Disconcerting as it is to think of ones body as fertilizer,
sure there is `something else'! Being food is important.
As far as the persistance of the personality, I agree completely.
JW> Life's meaning purpose and enjoyment is found more in
JW> poetry than in science...
JW> Not that poetry is so primal but that science leaves such a
JW> Void.
MG> Science esplains a good many things like love
Just posted a note 'bout a BBC program (On the Discovery Channel
that went into some detail about how science dosn't have a clue WRT love.
MG, but is not
MG> the topic of the origianl discussion. hec claimed that
MG> there is evidence for chmicals that mediate the neural
MG> reactions that we call love.
Involve, sure. How the chemical (A main one it seems is
pronounced Ox-e-tow-sin.) is translated into feelings was the
subject of the research. And they're a looong way off.
MG> You might want love to be
MG> something more.
Yep.
MG> you have yet to provide evidence that it
MG> is anything more.
I have to those concerned. Annectdotal(sp) to be sure.
But yes, you are correct.
MG> do you want to ascribe it to a god, a
MG> soul, a spirit?
Oh, hell, I'd ascribe it to a basic Function of the Universe.
An attractive force, much like gravitaton, say.
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: John Wilson
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Fundy lies
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:46:14
EID:1fd2 623115c0
MSGID: 1:153/7715.0 3a6577f6
-=> Martin Goldberg wrote to John Wilson <=-
MG>> Here is where you go fundy on us. The dats is that love
MG>> and other emotions are caused by chemicals.
There is no data on the translating of the chemicals involved to
feelings. Subject of much study/research as per other posts here.
JW> And will, control, choice is totally absent? *Random*
JW> interactions 'twixt chemicals?
MG> Still fundy. Control and choice are also controlled by the
MG> genetics of neurons.
You missed will. You have no will?
Where do you think that these come from?
Where do you think consciousness comes from?
MG> Thin air. then you go on to discuss "random interactions
MG> between chemcials". No such thing.
Not "discuss". I asked. With a note of incredulity.
MG> All chemical reactions
MG> are highly specific. or do you want to claim that these
MG> chemicals have emotions too which is why the randomly
MG> interact?
Nope. Nice idea though.
MG> Our chemistry makes us what we are.
DNA, enviornment...you seem to indicate that we are
automatons, with which I could agree *most* of the time; but
you seem to pare human beings into analyisable atoms...
MG> Do you want to claim
MG> that we pull our humanity out of the air, that it has no
MG> specific origin?
When science learns the first thing about consciousness I'll be
happy to change thoughts concerning chemistry making us what we are.
MG>> Besides, whether they cause love or not is not important.
It is to me. I thought that what what this whole discussion was about.
MG>> they exist and they have evidence that they do exist, unlike
MG>> a god of any description.
ok
MG> Without evidence of chemicals, I would have difficulty
MG> believing in their existance. Likewise with a god.
ok.
___ MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.32
--- Maximus 3.01
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Re: Thanks again
|Date: 17 Jan 01 09:04:00
EID:cc36 62314880
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 8898c3de
TZUTC: -0500
-=> MARTY LEIPZIG wrote to WAYNE CHIRNSIDE <=-
-=> Quoting Wayne Chirnside to Judith Bandsma <=-
WC> Update on the dogs teeth.
WC> Spankys teeth are now remarkably clean, I'm
WC> forever in your debt.
WC> Those turkey necks really did the trick and
WC> I'm somewhat astounded at how really clean his teeth are.
WC> Maybe science ought to look at putting this enzyme
WC> into people toothpaste.
ML> Somehow, an advert for "Pepsodent: now with turkey neck enzyme"
ML> just doesn't seem to work....
Marketing would take care of that as in mold and mildew
bathroom cleaners. For instance, fictitious name, Pizazz bathroom
and tile cleaner, exclusively with X-41.
I looked at an actual Tile and bathroom cleaner and unless
X-41 was the majority of inert ingrediants it had to be
sodium hypoclorate, ordinary bleach, highly deluted and sold for many
times the actual cost in a handy little spray bottle.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Re: Anybody not ice this
|Date: 17 Jan 01 09:08:00
EID:7fdd 62314900
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 262c0928
TZUTC: -0500
-=> GOD DAN wrote to JOHN WILSON <=-
-> On 14 Jan 01 07:16:08, John Wilson got back to Robert Sayre
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS> requests...
JW> They never tire of it...
GD> It's called "learning". You should try that sometime.
So obvious, so true and so elusive to the rabid fundy.
... Gross Ignorance: 144 Fundies.
--- MultiMail/PBellDOS v0.35
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|From: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Re: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 17 Jan 01 09:20:00
EID:05bd 62314a80
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 a98f8838
TZUTC: -0500
-=> MARTIN GOLDBERG wrote to ROBERT SAYRE <=-
MG>>> Why do some christians hate homosexuals?
RS>> You'd have to ask THEM.
MG>> But, I'm asking YOU.
RS> But, I don't know. How could I?
MG> You claim to be a christian. Why do christians hate homosexuals?
It's no mystery why Hitler admired the methods of
the Catholic church. Hate is a wonderful way to rally
a huge crowd of like minded hate filled bigoted idiots
to a cause, KKK, NAZI party, Catholic church, Church of
the Creator this latter pretty much the same as
the KKK and NAZI party rolled into one.
Atheists don't have target groups to hate only concepts that
lead to hatred.
... Gross Ignorance: 144 Fundies.
--- MultiMail/PBellDOS v0.35
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: SEAN MCCULLOUGH
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 17 Jan 01 10:47:00
EID:3e1c 623155e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 1f3057fd
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Sean Mccullough to Judith Bandsma <=-
JB> Sean is NOT an atheist, which I'm sure you think he is.
SM> Actually, I -am- an atheist -- with respect to Robert's God, only. :-)
I know that, but we're having trouble with Robert understanding the
easy words. You want to really confuse him with the concept of selective
atheism?
After all, I'd then have to point out that HE is an atheist, wouldn't
I?
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: ROSS SAUER
|Sub: Holy fucking shit
|Date: 16 Jan 01 20:41:12
EID:e8c2 6230a520
MSGID: 1:170/501 7af0910c
REPLY: 1:18/140 893f6747
RS> KARL SCHNEIDER said to ALL :
RS> KS>C > RS> On 01-07-01, CENTURION said to VERN HUMPHREY:
RS> KS>C > Radioactivity is a chemical characteristic. Change the
RS> chemistry KS>of the waste and you no longer have radioactive waste.
RS> KS>-------------------------------------------------------------------
RS> - KS>-- And this is one of the guys who sucks Stan H's cock for
RS> KS>complaining 'there are no smart liberals'.
RS> KS>Jesusfuckingchrist.
RS> Tell me about it.
RS> Like I said in the Politics echo, Hector's law applies there as well.
RS> (Although I seriously doubt any of the FTB's there will even get a
RS> glimmering of what it is.)
I've managed to avoid further banning there by ingesting bucketfuls
of anti-exasperation pills. What really gets me is those idiots will
actually keep on disagreeing with facts, substituting their own moronic
notions about most everything, being WRONG, and then refusing to
acknowledge their own fuckups. It's beyond amazing.
... Fundy brain: Opposite of a black hole: Nothing can get in.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: CURTIS JOHNSON
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 17 Jan 01 15:29:00
EID:7a01 62317ba0
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TZUTC: -0500
CURTIS JOHNSON said to MARTIN GOLDBERG:
CJ> CJ> It's been a few years since I've seen it, but in hardcover
CJ> CJ> there's "Science Citation Index." Only better university
CJ> CJ> libraries are likely to have it, though. No idea of they
CJ> CJ> have any I-net presence.
CJ> MG> The levelof information on a strictly bibliographical level
CJ> MG> these days changes at a log rate by the day. No hard copy
CJ> MG> dealie would be ble to keep up with it. I think that our
CJ> MG> library's mednet search service is by subscription only. If
CJ> MG> Dale wants, I'll be happy to compile the revised bibliography of
CJ> MG> yours truly and post it here.
CJ> Notice how he's made himself scarce?
Maybe his head finally succumbed to gravitational and air pressure
stresses and imploded.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: All
|Sub: (fwd) I'm publishing my new novel in internet instalments
|Date: 16 Jan 01 12:49:53
EID:3b24 62306620
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 b151c769
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GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Blanche Nonken
FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
Yeah, it's really _him._ Seriously.
In misc.writing, uri@uristory.com (Uri Geller) wrote:
> I+ve launched my new novel, Nobody+s Child, exclusively on the internet.
> The first two chapters are on the site for free ! anyone can read them,
> without charge. For the next fifty weeks I shall be emailing a chapter
> each Thursday to subscribers.
> I+m posting here because I want to talk about the writer+s side of
what
> I+m doing. I+d like to know if other people see it the way I do.
>
> 1. I+m angry at what Stephen King did. He acted as though the net novel
> was a flop iain fact, he had around 40000 paying readers. Might be a flop
> for him, but I know many aspiring writers would call 40000 sales a
> bestseller beyond their dreams!
> King failed because he got it wrong. He should have given the first
> chapters away for free iathat's what we're doing with Nobody's Child.
> Otherwise, how is the reader going to know if the book is gripping and
> exciting? He should have published weekly, not monthly i the top TV shows
> are weekly, and that should give us the clue (would Seinfeld or Frasier
> have been so big if they were monthly?)
> He charged too much per episode. Each instalment of Nobody+s Child
is
> only 20p (UK currency) which is about US 30 cents.
> And King definitiely should not have pulled the plug. If I had only
one
> reader, I would write the book to the very last word. Because I have given
> my word. I swear, even if I die before December 2001, in a plane wreck
or
> whatever, I will send my chapters from the next world. By telepathic
> email!
>
> 2. I get impatient, especially in the gap between completing a manuscript
> and seeing it in print. Two of my novels have appeared in print in the
> past three years, both of them months after they were completed. Long
> after I have moved on to new plots and new characters, people start to
ask
> me about the old ones.
> With Nobody+s Child, I+m inviting readers to email me directly or post
> comments on an online forum: instant feedback. I don+t yet know how much
> this will influence the development of the story (I haven+t written any
> more than has currently been mailed out!) but I do believe that for the
> first time in the history of printing, a writer can share a
> work-in-progress with readers who can respond immediately ... and that+s
a
> historic opportunity.
>
> 3. Novels should be topical. A century ago, topical meant |it happened
> this decade#. Today, topical means |it happened this week. Or today.#
> Nobody+s Child is an attack on Reality TV !ait+s a gameshow where
> childless couples compete to win a baby. I launched at the same time as
> Temptation Island on Fox TV. My novel won+t be finished till December
iaif
> I waited till mid-2002 to publish, the topical element could be lost.
>
> 4. The great novels were published in instalments when monthly periodicals
> were the fashion. The internet is like a daily periodical, or even hourly.
> Publication in instalments should mean longer books !ano one buys 350,000
> word novels today, but that would be feasible for a writer who published
> just 1000 words a day.
> I+m aiming at an easier target: around 2500 words a week. This is
> enough to keep me writing every day, so that the plot and the style keep
> flowing, but not so much that it takes over my life.
>
> When Nobody+s Child is fully published on the net ! and not before ! it
> will be released as a conventional paperback. I+ll also be writing a
> how-to guide for writers who want to produce their own internet novels:
> it+s not difficult, but careful planning is required.
>
> Much energy
> Uri Geller
> Sonning on Thames
> January 16
>
> uri@uristory.com
> http://www.uristory.com
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Burden of proof weighing you down?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:04:38
EID:2271 62308880
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> Show me that God cannot exist
Show us that you don't owe everyone in Holysmoke a million bucks. Silly
fundy.
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: All
|Sub: Re: Fundy fallacies
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:21:35
EID:f3f5 62308aa0
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 978a4132
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From: Mark Kimes
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> Accepting all of what you say as true, still as you admit;
> all of them are not known...but that is beside the point.
Yes, it is. The point was that you claimed one could provide evidence of
the existence of gods as readily as one could provide evidence of the
existence of love (you thought neither could be done). A list of some of
the chemicals which cause the emotion we refer to as "love" is evidence
of
its existence, as are the actions of those who experience the emotion.
Where's your equivalent evidence that gods exist (not merely that people
believe in them)? Oops.
> If we are but ephemerone-directed animals,
> controled by chemical reactions and you are
> satisfied that love is thus *explained*
No one's claimed that a partial list of the chemistry of love "explains"
love, fundy, and this strawman of yours is, as you put it, "beside the
point" -- the point being that you claimed that evidence of love and
evidence of god were equally difficult to obtain.
In fact, I think we can safely label this strawman evasionary tactic of
yours a _lie_, thrown out in an attempt to wriggle out from under the fact
that your original claim has been proven false and you're well and truly
busted.
Now, you've seen some evidence that love exists -- where's your evidence
that gods exist? Quit foisting strawmen and own up to the deficiency of
your original claim, like an honest man, or wear that fundy banner proudly,
for you've surely earned it, liar.
Hec
http://www.hectorplasmic.com
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Whacko(ff)
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:31:00
EID:0dca 62308be0
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From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Karl Schneider
(posted TO: Karl Schneider)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Karl Schneider
>>> I believe Religion is wrong. It's ...unnatural....
>> Then why is there so much of it? How is it any more
>> wrong than masturbation?
> It isn't. It just isn't near as much fun.
I just gotta ask.
When was the last time someone was killed because they refused to
masturbate? Or because they used the wrong hand?
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Cold fusion
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:34:46
EID:c54d 62308c40
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 4a6d9798
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From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Karl Schneider
(posted TO: Karl Schneider)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Karl Schneider
>>> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
>>> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
>>> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose confidence.
>>> They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if they're lucky.
>> You mean, like cold fusion?
> Yes, Robert, -exactly- like that! Those 2 guys (I should remember
> their names but I don't) tried to perpetrate a fraud and got caught
> with their virtual pants down.
I haven't followed this one up -- was it a stupid attempt at fraud, or just
plain stupidity? As I recall, their "process" seemed to be producing more
energy than could be accounted for by chemical reactions, thus they thought
they had cold fusion, but peer review quickly turned up more chemical
reaction energy than they'd found in their rush to get to press. Most
scientists were amazed that the perps hadn't done more study before rushing
to destroy their careers with a premature announcement...
What did they hope to gain?
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Woah
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:39:12
EID:cc23 62308ce0
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 7a1961be
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
REPLYADDR HOLYSMOKE-LIST@salata.com
GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Karl Schneider
(posted TO: Karl Schneider)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Karl Schneider
>> Yet, she inferred that there IS
>> evidence. That's the position that
>> I wanted her to justify.
>> If colored eggs are the evidence,
>> religious artifacts are evidence,
>> too.
Holy SHIT!
> Oh, man, this is TOO funny.
Holy SHIT!
> Please think about what you wrote.
Supersonic shuttle flyby.
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Re: Maximizing time
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:47:23
EID:80f4 62308de0
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 76c76523
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
REPLYADDR HOLYSMOKE-LIST@salata.com
GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Don Martin
(posted TO: Don Martin)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Don Martin
> I must warn you that I know where to get
> a light cone and an operator who is not
> afraid to use it.
It's a helluva job, but somebody's got to do it.
---
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 15 Jan 01 05:54:49
EID:ac57 622f2ec0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a62e6cd0
REPLY: 1:205/40 8e82891a
Robert Sayre wrote in a message to Sue Alexander:
SA> Why is it easier for you to believe that God has always existed than
SA> to say you just don't know what was there? The logical arguments in
SA> your statement are profound... the most straight forward being
SA> who/what created the creator?
RS> As I cannot find an end to the question "But, where did THAT come
RS> from", I have decided that there must be an ultimate origin. I call
RS> that ultimate origin God, because that's what I've been taught is
RS> what others have called it. I have seen nothing that makes me think
RS> that there was not an origin.
RS> Since I believe that an origin must exist, I must also believe that
RS> that ultimate origin must have created itself. It also must have
RS> created everything else, whether directly or indirectly. Anything
RS> with THAT power cannot reasonably be called nothing, IMO.
Why is it easier for you to believe such an origin (God) exists and that
it has the characteristics assigned to it by an old book of stories? If
there were a deity involved, I would suspect it would be more like the situation
described by Richard Bach than the situation described by the bible. Also,
if God is eternal, why can't the universe (in some form) be eternal?
Sue
... Find your truth where you will. -- Richard Bach
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: OBVIOUSLY NUTHIN' MUCH..
|Date: 15 Jan 01 06:07:21
EID:8b5d 622f30e0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a62e6cd1
REPLY: 1:205/40 35b3149a
Robert Sayre wrote in a message to Karl Schneider:
RS> I have donated food and used clothes, purchased new clothes, school
RS> supplies, etc. for less fortunates because of my belief in Him. This
RS> is God stopping some "bad stuff" indirectly.
I have done similar things (or donated money to such efforts) without a
belief in God. This is human comapssion.
Sue
... All the kookies are not in the jar.
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 06:10:12
EID:6571 622f3140
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a62e6cd2
REPLY: 1:205/40 3732b34c
Robert Sayre wrote in a message to Karl Schneider:
KS> Sally didn't say anything about 'races of man',...
RS> Sally didn't say anything at all
RS> before the above quoted lines. Would
RS> you have been happier had I typed:
RS> so many different colors of man?
So, what "color" is Tiger Woods?
Sue
... "Awright, hold it...where's the mutant repellant?" -Bloom County
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 06:11:00
EID:6571 622f3160
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a62e6cd3
REPLY: 1:205/40 35a1b113
Robert Sayre wrote in a message to Sue Alexander:
SA> That is true. However, those antibiotic-resistant bacteria
SA> that are now showing up all over the place show evolution exists.
RS> Only if you equate adaptation to evolution.
RS> We adapt to changing conditions without
RS> evolving into something different.
SA> The bacteria do not "adapt"...
SA> ... This is not adaptation, this is evolution.
RS> All of the web sites that I went to say adapt.
RS> A few also say mutate.
(Shaking head) Adapt in this context doesn't mean what you think it means...
which is what I was addressing.
Sue
... When a hammer is your only tool, all problems appear to be nails...
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Religion?
|Date: 15 Jan 01 06:15:46
EID:6571 622f31e0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a62e6cd4
REPLY: 1:205/40 f5d6af13
Robert Sayre wrote in a message to Marty Leipzig:
SA> That is true. However, those antibiotic-resistant bacteria that are
SA> now showing up all over the place show evolution exists.
RS> Only if you equate adaptation to evolution.
ML> Evolution operates on populations, not individuals. It also operates
ML> over the span of geological time, not the pitiful time scales of
ML> humanity.
RS> So, evolved MDR bacteria would take more than "the pitiful time
RS> scales of humanity" to occur. Thanks, Marty.
This would be true IF they didn't have such short generation times. An E.
coli reproduces in about 20 minutes... that would be 72 generations in 24
hours if all went well. This is why evolution can be more readily evident
in bacteria in the lifespan of a human.
Sue
... "If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic." Starwyn
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Jake Campbell
|Sub: Scientific Method
|Date: 16 Jan 01 06:13:58
EID:25e4 623031a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a643b730
REPLY: 1:229/623 3a5f8fa8
Jake Campbell wrote in a message to John Wilson:
GD>> You have yet to realize that no one gives a shit.
JW> I *am* begining, to their loss, to realize just that.
JC> I've been watching you present yourself for abuse for a month or so.
JC> I've been looking for an opportunity to jump in. I am just a shade
JC> more theist than agnostic, which could get me called a Fundy 'round
JC> here.
It will all depend on how you present yourself. Unfortunately, John has
not done a very good job at handling some conversations... I hope you can
do better.
Sue
... "Religious systems are zoo cages." -- Curtis Johnson
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Cindy Haglund
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 16 Jan 01 06:29:34
EID:4447 623033a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a643b733
Cindy Haglund wrote in a message to ALL:
CH> Favorite xtian adage?: "You'll find no atheists in foxholes."
CH> Yup. While this adage is meant to be derogatory from the xtian pov I
CH> believe it isn't.
CH> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
You are generalizing again, Cindy, and you get into trouble when you start
doing that.
Sue
... Gawd, what an uphill battle is education of the ignorant. D Hamilton
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|From: Sue Alexander
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 16 Jan 01 06:30:11
EID:a2a8 623033c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.34 a643b734
REPLY: 1:205/40 aee40c6f
Robert Sayre wrote in a message to Sue Alexander:
> What is your view on gays and lesbians, Robert?
RS> I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I believe that it is a sin
RS> against God, and unnatural. I do not like to see it, as it makes me
RS> very uncomfortable.
RS> I believe that, as with any sin, it is up to the individual(s) to
RS> correct the behavior, or else accept the consequences in the
RS> afterlife. It is not for me to interfere, until and unless it
RS> affects someone whom I'm responsible for.
SA> So, what would happen if your daughter or son would bring a same-sex
SA> partner home to meet you? It could happen if you have children.
RS> My son brought home a girl of another race. We were not comfortable
RS> with the situation, and we told him why. We told him that we would
RS> support him, regardless of his choices.
(shaking head) At least you realize it is his decision to make ultimately.
What is wrong with mixed race relations?
RS> I would hope that we would do the same if he brought home a boy,
RS> though I really don't know, and I hope that we never have to face
RS> such a situation.
For your son's sake, I suspect you won't. If he has those inclinations,
he is more likely to not tell you as you are so uncomfortable with it.
Can you face the possibility of losing your son a bit in the process?
Sue
... "Don't dream it. Be it." - Frank N. Furter
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|From: God Dan
|To: Elizabeth McGuire
|Sub: ...
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:53:34
EID:be9d 623116a0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a65092e
-> On 16 Jan 01 05:48:18, Elizabeth McGuire got back to Ross Sauer
EM> These same areas of the Bible also say that if YOU were raped, you
EM> would have to marry your rapist, that kids who get uppity should be
EM> End Quote
EM> HELP!!! He's trying to eat me!
Try again.
Has he raped you? And, if so, is your religion forcing you to
marry him?
... Religion has stopped more beating hearts than abortion. FRice
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 17 Jan 01 02:57:00
EID:efbc 62311720
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a6509fc
-> On 15 Jan 01 18:41:00, John Wilson got back to God Dan
GD> stick?
JW> I have a great deal of respect for that poor peasent of palestine:
JW> he must have had a hell of an impact on those he taught, as well
JW> as the crowds.
You mean all of those words that were written by others ling before
they became platitutes of xiananity?
That's rigth, John. Little, if anything, that your godling
said hasn't laready been said by others.
JW> Revere, rather than worship.
Just live by the ideals and know that someone else said them first.
... "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you." Hillel
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|From: God Dan
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Assholes in Foxholes
|Date: 17 Jan 01 03:09:18
EID:9848 62311920
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a650cde
-> On 16 Jan 01 01:25:00, JUDITH BANDSMA got back to DON MARTIN
-=> Quoting Don Martin to All <=-
TR>
TR> Tim Richardson
DM> Did anyone else find this list of nasty people (most of
DM> whom are confirmed Catholics) interesting?
JB> Yep. Especially that last name included.
JB> But then, we knew that, didn't we?
And he thinks I'm nasty!
So, just how are the orders for Pies this weeek going? I'll
be a bit late, as I'm LMAO!
... The Armed Cervixes: the Harpy Air Force - Richard Smith
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|From: God Dan
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 17 Jan 01 03:15:50
EID:aea4 623119e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a650e66
-> On 15 Jan 01 07:40:00, MARTY LEIPZIG got back to MARTIN GOLDBERG
ML> 'Sides that, ya got it wrong. Schlitz was the beer that made
ML> Milwaukee famous.
And it died the same death that the "New Coke" did when the
morons changed their formula. As it happened long before
Coca-Cola did their fucks-paws, one does have to wonder about
what's in "The real Thing!" these days.
A pitty, as it was once a good, real beer...
... "El O'him: God is an Irish Mexican." J.j. Hitt
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|From: God Dan
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 17 Jan 01 03:20:17
EID:b49c 62311a80
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a650f71
-> On 15 Jan 01 10:15:58, Martin Goldberg got back to Ross Sauer
RS> I actually tried tequila a few weeks ago, blech.
MG> Tequila is only good when mixed. Shots don't cut it. Margaritas
MG> should have enough triple sec or somesuch to makethem refreshing on
a
MG> hot day.
Lime juice! And shaken in ice, not stirred! With lot's of salt
on the rim. With a damed hot, sunny day to go with it.
... I have lusted in my heart for a nice cold beer.
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|From: God Dan
|To: Elizabeth McGuire
|Sub: homosexuality
|Date: 17 Jan 01 03:22:31
EID:2b24 62311ac0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a650ff7
-> On 15 Jan 01 07:25:08, Elizabeth McGuire got back to Ross Sauer
EM> The verses that are used to say homosexuality is a sin are:
EM> *Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
The evidence that your god that wrote that is????
Hewll, that same book of yours says that you should dash out the
brains of children. Do you do that?
... "brain": the part of the body never mentioned in the bible. J Mus.
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: ROSS SAUER
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 17 Jan 01 22:33:00
EID:5627 6231b420
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 8f6f8b46
TZUTC: -0500
JB> The fact is that scientists don't publish unless they are sure
JB> that their results are replicable by others. When they aren't
JB> they lose their grants, they lose respect, they lose
JB> confidence. They end up cleaning mouse shit in the lab ... if
JB> they're lucky.
RS> You mean, like cold fusion?
SS> Exactly like cold fusion. Those poor guys were reduced to the
SS> physics department equivalent of cleaning cages in, quite
SS> literally, months.
RS> Actually, Fleishmann and Pons are still claiming their "cold
RS> fusion" works, and they are currently doing "research" and
RS> claiming more "results" from this private lab they suckered
RS> into letting them work at.
Believe me, from the point of view of other physicists that's
mopping floors. It probably pays about the same too. They have zero
credibility in the scientific community and couldn't place an
article in the _Reader's Digest_ unless it described their road to
ruin.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: SALLY SPRINGETT
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: A really sick joke
|Date: 17 Jan 01 22:38:00
EID:de59 6231b4c0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 48366796
TZUTC: -0500
MG> I recall yoko Ono's great Opus called "Smile" which fetured 8
MG> hours of Joun Lennon smiling.
GD> Do you know what Yoko Ono and Ethopians have in common?
It can't be low food supplies.
___ Blue Wave/386 v2.30
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Dale Beaudoin
|Sub: tuppens, yes tuppens
|Date: 18 Jan 01 13:35:00
EID:9180 62326c60
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 10acf6c7
DB> I have come to realize that the majority here are remmant tuppens.
DB> I understand this and it makes more clear to me the nature of the
DB>flow of the thread, the anger, hate and discontent.
DB> It is true that I claimed to be a "great scientist" but that was
DB> a title that was awarded to me, not by myself, but my peers,
DB>especially the women scientists.
BWAHHHH!!!!!!
DB> Also .. as for my penis... which seems to have been a topic of
DB>interest as of late between several in the echo) it is a normal
DB>funtioning penis.
It resembles Allen Funt?
DB>Some might think because of my first name "Dale"
DB>that I am a female but I am not. I played football in junior college
DB>and was on a team that won the All City Championships in 1970-71. I
DB>do admit that my penis (7 and 9/10th inches) is comparably small by
DB>many standards but it is still a good penis that works and is doing
DB>fine.
Your egotism mixed with poor mental health never ceases to amaze.
DB> Having said this, I hope I have clarified a few misconceptions which
DB>slanderous rumour has been precipitated here. I attended McMaster
DB>University in 1971 at the age of 16. St Clair College of Applied Arts
DB>and Technology, University of Windsor and etc...
DB> I am not into self aggrandizing like Mary Goldberg,
Sure, Dale, sure.
DB>but, I do
DB>recognize and respect his efforts and credentials but I will not bow
DB>to him or kiss his boots.
Yeah, don't rather suck your our dick. Obviously.
DB>That is what the NAZIs might have me do
DB>and since Marty has admitted to be of the Herbaic Faith (Jewish)
All of that college and you can't spell "Hebraic". How sad for you.
DB>perhaps he might be grateful to know that I come from a long line of
DB>WWI and II volunteers with the Royal Aiforce who kicked NAZI ass in
DB>World War II.
So he should consider YOU the savior of his people.
Amazing.
Get help, Dale.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 18775 þ stevie.ray@coconutcomm.com
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Dale Beaudoin
|Sub: Re: fiddler's fuck
|Date: 18 Jan 01 13:36:00
EID:6475 62326c80
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 ed10ce52
DB> When you had laughed at my writings and poetry, you had an orgasm
DB>of the heart, mind and soul. You were in a total body spasm, which
DB>was a power greater than yourself and that you had absolutely no
DB>control over. You did not decide to laugh, but, rather, were
DB>stimulated by a total body orgasm.
DB> All the orifices in your body were laughing. Think about it! Just
DB>stop for a moment and think about it. LAughter is joy and joy is what
DB>you felt but you are publically embarrassed to admit it because it
DB>bears wittness to evidence and proof of the existence of God.
What a insane fucking idiot.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 18775 þ jesusonacid@yahoo.com
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 16:57:00
EID:49ff 62308720
MSGID: 1:128/148.2@fidonet 0810c0ef
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CHRS: IBMPC 2
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DM> Sean Mccullough is always saying stuff like this and the
DM> "SM" initials match.
It's mine, all right.
The McCullough Challenge, to be precise. :)
DM> He does not, however, tell you to
DM> _de_nounce god; he tells you to _re_nounce god if you have
DM> no evidence. There is a difference. The first is an insult
DM> or curse ("God behaves like a rancid turd, apparently never
DM> washes under the arms, and his mother dresses him funny"
DM> would be this sort of denunciation) or a formal, public
DM> charge of malfeasance ("God has been spying for the Russians
DM> for decades" uttered before the Senate Foreign Relations
DM> Committee would be that sort).
DM> A renunciation is a formal declaration that one no
DM> longer subscribe to some particular set of beliefs. One can
DM> renounce, say, the Republican Party without necessarily
DM> denouncing it.
And I don't even demand he renounce his beLIEfs. All I really want -- as
Steve Kemp correctly perceived -- is for Robert to admit that the atheists
CAN be correct in regards to the existence of his God.
Even that is forbidden worshippers of the Biblical God -- by all three major
families of religions who claim to worship that God. Anything besides "God
exists, regardless of evidence" is their so-called "sin" of apostasy, and
the penalty is the same in all three as well -- permanent eviction from
the body of the faithful.
DM> Notice that a denunciation assumes the existence of the
DM> thing denounced: insulting or bringing formal charges
DM> against the non-existent is silly at best; at worst it would
DM> lead others to doubt one's sanity. This is why WOAs tend to
DM> denounce god conditionally, inserting something to the
DM> effect of "_IF_ such a being exists" before going on to
DM> observe that this being's behavior appropriately deserves
DM> condemnation.
Since atheists can admit to the possibility of God existing, without any
sort of sanctions being applied to them (and without ceasing to be WOA's),
the McCullough Challenge cannot be applied to them. The criminalization
of
"apostasy", per above, is a requisite ingredient -- and an action no atheist
can commit, by the definitions of the involved terms.
But beLIEvers are sure vulnerable to it!
DM> Now that your vocabulary is improved, pray tell us who
DM> _demands_ that you denounce god? Name that person and give
DM> the quote.
In very deed.
slack -- s.
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 16 Jan 01 17:00:00
EID:578f 62308800
MSGID: 1:128/148.2@fidonet 0810c0f0
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PID: FM+ 2.26.SW SW0000D2
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CODEPAGE: 437
-=>> Quoting John Wilson to Wayne Chirnside <=-
JW>> When it comes to *lasting* the bible wins by a ratio of 12000:1 :-)
JB> You seem to be ignoring texts MUCH older than the bible and from
JB> which most of that document's stories were cribbed.
If I am to understand the thread correctly, the comparison standard is cold
fusion.
If that be the case, John's right. And you are also, as well. :-)
slack -- s.
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Foxholes
|Date: 16 Jan 01 20:46:02
EID:7ec7 6230a5c0
MSGID: 1:128/148.2@fidonet 0814bb12
REPLY: 1:18/140 84311b79
PID: FM+ 2.26.SW SW0000D2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
CODEPAGE: 437
-=>> Quoting Robert Sayre to Cindy Haglund <=-
CH>> Atheists don't believe in killing people.
RS>> How could you possibly know this to be
RS>> true or false?
JB> It doesn't. It's as big an idiot as you are.
Don't go dissin' Robert like that!! :-)
slack -- s.
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|From: Sean McCullough
|To: JUDITH BANDSMA
|Sub: Anybody not ice this
|Date: 16 Jan 01 20:48:02
EID:b0b0 6230a600
MSGID: 1:128/148.2@fidonet 0814bb13
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PID: FM+ 2.26.SW SW0000D2
CHRS: IBMPC 2
CODEPAGE: 437
-=>> Quoting John Wilson to Robert Sayre <=-
RS>> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS>> requests...
JW>> They never tire of it...
JB> Present some and the requests will stop. Simple, isn't it?
And if their God existed outside their hyperactive imaginations, it would
be EASY, also.
slack -- s.
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|From: Don Martin
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 17 Jan 01 21:34:00
EID:ba7f 6231ac40
MSGID: 1:261/1000.0 3a665618
Karl Schneider said "Biblical contradictions" to Don Martin, adding:
RS> Yet, she inferred that there IS
RS> evidence. That's the position that
RS> I wanted her to justify.
RS> If colored eggs are the evidence,
RS> religious artifacts are evidence,
RS> too.
KS> Oh, man, this is TOO funny. Please think about what you wrote.
KS> Please.
DM> Mr. "Connect _WHAT_ dots?" actually _think_ about what
DM> he has written? You are almost funnier than he is.
KS> Yeah, I know. But then, I'm -trying- to be. giggle.
Yer a mean man, Schneider. Must fit right in around here
. . .
And speaking of unintentional humor, the inauguration of
the Shrub Saturday will be attended by some 13 sizeable
protest groups with licenses to protest, plus an unknown
number of other groups of 24 persons (fewer than 25 and you
don't need a license) who will serenade him along his route.
The first set wouldn't have been issued licenses had it not
been for such protesters taking the Park Service to court in
'96: they won, establishing the point of law that licenses
shall not be refused to citizens wishing to demonstrate. The
ones who cleared this path for the coming riff-raff were
anti-abortionists.
There is some do tomorrow for which we government
employees have been asked to stay out of town, taking our
own personal leave time or unpaid leave to do so. Some
200,000 merry republicans are celebrating in the afternoon,
and things will be a wee bit congested. They are closing the
bridges across the Potomac to accomodate them (people who
live in Virginia might as _well_ take the day off), but I
don't see a similar willingness to accomodate government
workers by offering a day's pay to those staying home or
granting excused absences.
I take the train _north_ out of town--I'll be there
tomorrow.
... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
(don.martin@mail.va.gov)
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: BLANCHE NONKEN
|Sub: Leavin' IS NOT!
|Date: 18 Jan 01 17:44:00
EID:a085 62328d80
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 a416c1eb
TZUTC: -0500
Blanche Nonken wrote to Jitender Saan about Re: Leavin'
18 January 2001, Thursday - 17:43
Hola Blanche,
>So, what happened to fuck up your trip?
Nothing. I went to Delhi. For some reasons, not entirely unknown, Dan
thinks I meant to go to Michigan.
Not that I'd mind going there in ANY weather :))))
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Leavin'
|Date: 18 Jan 01 17:45:00
EID:2724 62328da0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 212da193
TZUTC: -0500
God Dan wrote to Jitender Saan about Leavin'
18 January 2001, Thursday - 17:44
Hola God,
> JS> I didn't go to Michigan. That is why this whole thread is so amusing
> JS> to me :)
>
>So, just where did you too go?
Noo Delhi.
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Leavin'
|Date: 18 Jan 01 17:46:00
EID:2724 62328dc0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 33980e7d
TZUTC: -0500
God Dan wrote to Jitender Saan about Leavin'
18 January 2001, Thursday - 17:45
Hola God,
> JS> Nope.
>
>See devious message.
And "devious" IS the word :)
>Just how was Christmas in the Bahamas? Like home without the
>snow?
Very nice. I finished reading Foundation on christmas.
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: JOHN WILSON
|Sub: Marty and Scotch ...
|Date: 18 Jan 01 17:47:00
EID:fbca 62328de0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 97b4dd64
TZUTC: -0500
John Wilson wrote to Jitender Saan about Re: Fundys making laws
18 January 2001, Thursday - 17:46
Hola John,
> JS> Did you ever tell M. Leipzig that you like scotch?
>
> JS> I am serious.
>
> I'm curious concerning your question.
Mention scotch to Marty and see the fur fly.
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: MARTIN GOLDBERG
|Sub: Pics ...
|Date: 18 Jan 01 17:48:00
EID:90bd 62328e00
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 4f67a931
TZUTC: -0500
Martin Goldberg wrote to Jitender Saan about Pics ...
18 January 2001, Thursday - 17:47
Hola Martin,
> JS> Hey, it doesn't have to be recent. We are trying to give a
> JS> face to a name here so even an old picture shouldn't be a
> JS> problem.
> JS> What is the URL to Jack Yate's site?
>
>ldl.net/~myzr/myzr.htm
Gotcher. I had even seen Don Martin's picture SOMEWHERE but can't
remember it.
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: BLANCHE NONKEN
|Sub: Kosher ...
|Date: 18 Jan 01 17:52:00
EID:85dd 62328e80
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 4dd04052
TZUTC: -0500
Blanche Nonken wrote to Marty Leipzig about Re: Anybody notice this?
18 January 2001, Thursday - 17:52
Hola Blanche,
>> Nahhh, we're savin' that for quebrito.
>
>Mmm, quebrito. You know I can't get any kosher goat around here; I have
>to settle for halal.
NOW, and finally, I know what kosher means.
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: GOD DAN
|Sub: Assholes in Foxholes
|Date: 18 Jan 01 09:24:00
EID:1098 62324b00
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 195bf76c
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting God Dan to Judith Bandsma <=-
GD> So, just how are the orders for Pies this weeek going? I'll
GD> be a bit late, as I'm LMAO!
I think I'm going to need 6 extra locally.
The state supreme court just told the school board that they can
raise property taxes without going through the legislature or
getting approval from the citizens of the area. Without even letting
you know they're going to do it.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: SUE ALEXANDER
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 18 Jan 01 09:25:00
EID:b7e5 62324b20
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 9bb134f8
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Sue Alexander to Robert Sayre <=-
RS> My son brought home a girl of another race. We were not comfortable
RS> with the situation, and we told him why. We told him that we would
RS> support him, regardless of his choices.
SA> (shaking head) At least you realize it is his decision to make
SA> ultimately. What is wrong with mixed race relations?
You know, I see something like this and I'd like to wring Robert's
neck. I'd give anything to have my youngest bring home a male lover and
be a happy productive member of society rather than the sociopath that
he is.
I'd be happy to see him bring home a boy of another race, even.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JITENDER SAAN
|Sub: Leavin'
|Date: 18 Jan 01 09:26:00
EID:47b4 62324b40
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 fb17296b
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Jitender Saan to God Dan <=-
>So, just where did you too go?
JS> Noo Delhi.
Where they're having all the problems with the monkeys disrupting the
government? Sort of like Washington these days.
I think Dan got the idea you were going to Michigan from the tone of
your post about the vacation...you seemed really delighted to be
going. So most of us assumed there was a good reason for that.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: JUDITH BANDSMA
|To: JITENDER SAAN
|Sub: Pics ...
|Date: 18 Jan 01 09:27:00
EID:02dc 62324b60
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 35b6adf2
TZUTC: -0500
-=> Quoting Jitender Saan to Martin Goldberg <=-
JS> Gotcher. I had even seen Don Martin's picture SOMEWHERE but can't
JS> remember it.
I've got at least one of those.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Michael Gothreau
|Sub: Re: Bobby ... ?
|Date: 27 Dec 00 11:29:04
EID:9f2a 619b5ba0
MSGID: 1:246/142 1190299d
TID: GE 1.2
MG> DB>
MG>
MG> Don Martin has beaten you in a battle of wits, and so now you whine
just
MG> like Appletoon did when Don did it to him.
MG>
MG> Here's a clue: next time, bring some wit, or expect to get trounced
MG> again.
Wit?
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: fiddler's fuck
|Date: 27 Dec 00 11:32:09
EID:7426 619b5c00
MSGID: 1:246/142 1190299e
TID: GE 1.2
KS>
KS> Tell the nice man in the white coat he forgot to give you your
KS> Thorazine this morning.
KS>
Ya mean the guy in the SS lab coat at Haus Sonnenstien ?
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Wayne Chirnside
|Sub: Re: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 01 Jan 01 13:56:51
EID:9e51 62216f00
MSGID: 1:246/142 16a74575
TID: GE 1.2
On 26 Dec 00 11:10:00, Wayne Chirnside said the following to Robert Sayre:
-=> ROBERT SAYRE wrote to KARL SCHNEIDER <=-
WC>
WC> RS> If I saw someone else do this, I
WC> RS> would think that I would be trying
WC> RS> to save the girl, not trying to track
WC> RS> the other person who did not.
WC>
WC> So you try to help those that god allows violence
WC> and disease to affect. Good on you, bad on god.
WC> Robert Sayre has just demonstated he is more
WC> moral, powerful and far less wicked than God.
God works through people and we get the wisdom to know the difference.
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
* Origin: Champagne's Island, Windsor,ON. (519) 977-9554 (1:246/142)
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Re: fiddler's fuck
|Date: 04 Jan 01 14:13:26
EID:98a9 622471a0
MSGID: 1:246/142 18c2c118
TID: GE 1.2
GD> DB> Am I supposed to care? I don't care if you're the
GD> DB> fucking Wizard of Oz himself.
GD>
GD> Unlike Oz, he's told you who he really is.
Ok .. ..fruck man... I just can't figure what you tuppen's chips
want me to do? Cartwheels?
"I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round..
I really love to watch them go..." _JL_
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 04 Jan 01 14:19:44
EID:e87b 62247260
MSGID: 1:246/142 18c2c119
TID: GE 1.2
On 26 Dec 00 16:16:46, Martin Goldberg said the following to Dale Beaudoin:
MG> MG>> different about them. A sugar pill will not lower you blood
MG> MG>> pressure but it might make you believe that it did.
MG> DB> But a good cigar is still a good cigar!
MG>
MG> Did you look my name up in teh scientific reference services yet, Boy?
Alright! Damn it. You have whined enough. And.. I will facilitate that
whine but going to my internet search engine to see this wonderous site
that
you say you are! :)
I mean .. I don't get it Marty.... if your a Ph.D. or something else am
I
supposed to genuflect, sonny?
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Karl Schneider
|Sub: Re: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 04 Jan 01 14:23:06
EID:ddc5 622472e0
MSGID: 1:246/142 18c2c11a
TID: GE 1.2
On 27 Dec 00 15:45:50, Karl Schneider said the following to Martin Goldberg:
KS> On (26 Dec 00) Martin Goldberg wrote to Dale Beaudoin...
KS>
KS> MG> MG>> different about them. A sugar pill will not lower you blood
KS> MG> MG>> pressure but it might make you believe that it did.
KS> DB> But a good cigar is still a good cigar!
KS>
KS> MG> Did you look my name up in teh scientific reference services yet,
Boy?
KS>
KS> He doesn't know how.
That goes to show how much of a buffoon you are.
You can lick marty's boots all you want.
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Re: talkin to Charlie
|Date: 04 Jan 01 14:25:14
EID:f567 62247320
MSGID: 1:246/142 18c2c11b
TID: GE 1.2
On 27 Dec 00 17:13:03, Mark Kimes said the following to Karl Schneider:
MK> From: Mark Kimes
MK> (posted TO: Karl Schneider)
MK>
MK> FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
MK>
MK>
> FTN-Posted-By: Karl Schneider
MK>
MK> DB>> All I can say is _HolySmoke_ , yer full of shit!
MK>
> And your reason for continuing to ,er...'participate' is...what?
MK>
MK> He fears he'd be wrong if he quit posting, of course.
That is not quite the truth. I was invited here, to render my scientific
veiw, to shed light on the evolutionary parodox, to boldly go to propound
theory which no one has propounded before!
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Judith Bandsma
|Sub: Re: This is your brain on
|Date: 04 Jan 01 14:27:08
EID:fd24 62247360
MSGID: 1:246/142 18c2c11c
TID: GE 1.2
On 27 Dec 00 21:55:00, Judith Bandsma said the following to Mark Kimes:
JB> -=> Quoting Mark Kimes to Michael Gothreau <=-
JB>
JB> MK> Is it just me, or does Dale Beaudoin sound like the born-again
John
JB> MK> Brawley?
JB>
JB>
JB> Brawley did, most often, TRY to explain himself and did tend to
JB> laugh at himself at times.
JB>
JB> This dumbass is stupid and unaware of just HOW stupid he makes
JB> himself look.
Judy , Judy, Judy.... you are devolving!
dreaded....you dare to purport
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Wayne Chirnside
|Sub: Re: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 04 Jan 01 14:32:36
EID:e064 62247400
MSGID: 1:246/142 18c2c11d
TID: GE 1.2
On 28 Dec 00 10:45:00, Wayne Chirnside said the following to Martin Goldberg:
-=> MARTIN GOLDBERG wrote to DALE BEAUDOIN <=-
WC>
WC> MG>> different about them. A sugar pill will not lower you blood
WC> MG>> pressure but it might make you believe that it did.
WC> DB> But a good cigar is still a good cigar!
WC>
WC> MG> Did you look my name up in teh scientific reference services yet,
Boy?
WC>
WC> I'm a bit curious about your credentials and work.
WC> Got a couple other keywords that would appear along
WC> with your name. Somehow Martin Goldberg doesn't strike
WC> me as a particularly unique name and I've had my share of
WC> 80,000 hit web searches.
No kidding Wayne!!!! ... Knock , Knock.... hello....!
I think that they think that they are somthing that they are but do not
really care to do the work, rather, they would attempt to have some lackey
do
it for them, like Judith or God Dan or any one of the multiple array of
schitzoid affective personalities in this echo.
For sure, what we have here is dry crusted tuppen plugs:)
dale
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Martin Goldberg
|Sub: Re: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 05 Jan 01 01:52:00
EID:e87b 62250e80
MSGID: 1:246/142 19185cf9
TID: GE 1.2
On 29 Dec 00 16:26:03, Martin Goldberg said the following to Wayne Chirnside:
MG> WC> I'm a bit curious about your credentials and work.
MG> WC> Got a couple other keywords that would appear along
MG> WC> with your name. Somehow Martin Goldberg doesn't strike
MG> WC> me as a particularly unique name and I've had my share of
MG> WC> 80,000 hit web searches.
MG>
MG> I earned Bs. degrees in chistry, biology and Biochemistry from North
Texas
MG> State University and a masters in Biochemistry there as well. I worked
for
MG> number of years at the medical school (part of the U.T. system) in an
MG> immunology lab in the department of Rheumatology where I worked on the
immu
MG> response in Rhumatoid Arthritis towards the doctorate.
So there you go. You have proven the point that God works through people.
RA can be extremely painful and perhaps you might be the lovley dust that
God will use to work a cure.
go figure
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: Sue Alexander
|Sub: Re: fiddler's fuck
|Date: 05 Jan 01 02:11:32
EID:edc6 62251160
MSGID: 1:246/142 19185cfa
TID: GE 1.2
DB> "Great thinkers arouse violent opposition from mediocre minds."
DB> --Albert Einstein--
SA>
DB> I think I made my demonstration very lucid and succint!
SA>
SA> Great thinkers do not need to tell others how great they are.
SA>
DB> it was bestowed upon me. what do you want?
SA>
SA> Dale, you need a clue. Hell, you need a clue X 4 at this stage.
Great
SA> intelligence is not "bestowed" (other than a predisposition), it is
worked
SA>
SA> If you are a great thinker, show us. So far, we have laughed at
your
SA> attempts at thought process and poetry, but you might just be warming
up. H
SA> about it?
Susan,
, by the mere fact that you laugh and ballyhoo me is proof that
God exists. God is a laughing God. Not a mean spirited prick-bitch that
goes
vindictive when they are ask a question. ie, I asked a question about
clorophyl and everybody went ape shit. The aetheist whined and slandered
me
(or attempted to), the tuppens shrieked and the christians threw holy water
on
me only to find that i had already been sanctifed, .
When you had laughed at my writings and poetry, you had an orgasm of the
heart, mind and soul. You were in a total body spasm, which was a power
greater than yourself and that you had absolutely no control over. You did
not
decide to laugh, but, rather, were stimulated by a total body orgasm.
All the orifices in your body were laughing. Think about it! Just stop for
a
moment and think about it. LAughter is joy and joy is what you felt but
you
are publically embarrassed to admit it because it bears wittness to evidence
and proof of the existence of God.
Many people mis-interperet the bible. God is a laughing God. Human-kind
is
flippant and can be kind and loving one day and miserable bastards the next.
Point is they choose to be miserable, God doesn't. God is not a slavemaster,
he is an emancipator and He wants to free your mind of all the anal retentive
manuchia of the tuppen world. You can wear the world as a loose garment
and
still function and walk in the light at the same time. Even if you sin the
worse sin, God will forgive you. Who did Christ hang out with anyways?
He certainly did not hang out with the well to do. He hung around murderers
and theives and stinking drunks, prostitutes and schitzophrenics. HE healed
them.
I do not have to show i am a great thinker, you people prove it just by
the
mere fact that you slander me, and I bless you and curse you not:)
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Dale Beaudoin
|To: All
|Sub: tuppens, yes tuppens
|Date: 05 Jan 01 13:19:40
EID:1a52 62256a60
MSGID: 1:246/142 196aa7d4
TID: GE 1.2
I have come to realize that the majority here are remmant tuppens.
I understand this and it makes more clear to me the nature of the flow of
the thread, the anger, hate and discontent.
It is true that I claimed to be a "great scientist" but that was a title
that was awarded to me, not by myself, but my peers, especially the women
scientists.
Also .. as for my penis... which seems to have been a topic of interest
as
of late between several in the echo) it is a normal funtioning penis. Some
might think because of my first name "Dale" that I am a female but I am
not. I
played football in junior college and was on a team that won the All City
Championships in 1970-71. I do admit that my penis (7 and 9/10th inches)
is
comparably small by many standards but it is still a good penis that works
and
is doing fine.
Having said this, I hope I have clarified a few misconceptions which
slanderous rumour has been precipitated here. I attended McMaster University
in 1971 at the age of 16. St Clair College of Applied Arts and Technology,
University of Windsor and etc...
I am not into self aggrandizing like Mary Goldberg, but, I do recognize
and
respect his efforts and credentials but I will not bow to him or kiss his
boots. That is what the NAZIs might have me do and since Marty has admitted
to
be of the Herbaic Faith (Jewish) perhaps he might be grateful to know that
I
come from a long line of WWI and II volunteers with the Royal Aiforce who
kicked NAZI ass in World War II.
"We were on a mission to blow up the smoke stacks in Auschwitz. We were
told
it was a ball bearing factory... or a tire factory .. or somthing. We came
in
low with the Lancaster and we had one engine shot out by a cannon from a
ME109. We were over the smoke stacks and there was flack everywhere. The
order
was given to drop bombs and the bombs hung up. We flew right into the cloud
and we could smell burning flesh... human flesh. We flew by and had to take
a
course back through Hungary and I had to kick the bombs out and we blew
up a
little farm house. We were loosing altitude so we didn't have a choice....
... we never knew about the Jews or the Hollocaust until just after the
war"
.... Dad...
--- GEcho 1.20/Pro
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|From: Karl Schneider
|To: Robert Sayre
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 17 Jan 01 18:18:54
EID:d6b7 62319240
GMD: 1:396/1
MSGID: 1:170/501 a8bbe5aa
REPLY: 1:205/40 36d847ae
On (12 Jan 01) Robert Sayre wrote to Ross Sauer...
RS> Are animals that have homosexual sex "unnatural and
RS> sinning against God?"
RS> I don't know of any animals having
RS> homosexual sex; but, to sin requires
RS> the knowledge that it IS a sin, and
RS> a CHOICE to commit that sin. Animals
RS> are incapable of sin.
And just how do you reconcile that claim with the alleged
punishment of Adam and Eve for 'sinning' before they ate of the
tree of the knowledge of 'good and evil'? Were they toppled from
grace for 'sinning'?...or just being stupid?
... If he knew 9 more things, he'd be an idiot.
--- PPoint 3.01
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|From: Steve Kemp
|To: Dale Beaudoin
|Sub: tuppens, yes tuppens
|Date: 18 Jan 01 14:07:00
EID:9180 623270e0
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX98-1060M2
MSGID: 1:114/59 38a27a12
SK>Yeah, don't rather suck your our dick. Obviously.
^^^^^
"You'd" that is.
þ CMPQwk 1.42 18775 þ jesusonacid@yahoo.com
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: Bob's Place BBS Mesa,AZ (www.bobsplc.com) (480)610-5160 (1:114/59)
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|From: Steve Quarrella
|To: All
|Sub: "Thou shalt not commit adultery"
|Date: 18 Jan 01 16:33:26
EID:bc3d 62328420
MSGID: 1:393/9005@fidonet 09105ad2
PID: FM 2.33.mL.b2 AE0000BC
CHRS: IBMPC 2
CODEPAGE: 437
TZUTC: -0600
TID: FastEcho 1.46.1 10280
http://www.wfaa.com/wfaa/articledisplay/0,1002,18847,00.html
Jesse Jackson Admits to Out-of-Wedlock Child
Reporter: The Associated Press
Updated: Jan 18 at 12:14PM
WASHINGTON - Civil rights activist Jesse Jackson revealed Thursday that
he had an extramarital affair that resulted in the birth of a daughter.
"I fully accept responsibility and I am truly sorry for my actions," he
said. Jackson, a Baptist minister and one-time aide to Martin Luther
King Jr., issued a statement admitting that he fathered the child, now
20 months old, and has provided "emotional and financial support"
since her birth. "As her mother does, I love this child very much,"
he said.
"I was born of these circumstances, and I know the importance of
growing up in a nurturing, supportive and protected environment,"
Jackson said. "So I am determined to give my daughter and her mother
the privacy they both deserve."
The civil rights leader said he would be stepping aside temporarily
from his public life.
Jackson did not say why he issued the statement. His New York-based
spokesman, John Scanlon, said later that Jackson acted to get out
in front of anticipated tabloid reports about the child, who Scanlon
said was the result of an affair Jackson had with a woman who worked
in the Washington office of Jackson's advocacy group, the
Rainbow-PUSH Coalition.
"He's obviously concerned for his family, for his child and the
child's mother," Scanlon said.
The story was first reported by the National Enquirer.
"This is no time for evasions, denials or alibis," Jackson's
statement said. "No doubt, many close friends and supporters will
be disappointed in me. I ask for their forgiveness, understanding and
prayers."
Jackson, 59, was a steadfast presence at President Clinton's side
as the president struggled with the public revelation of his affair
with Monica Lewinsky and the impeachment proceedings that followed.
He went to the White House to pray with Clinton's family on a grim
weekend in August 1998, as Clinton admitted the truth to his wife
and daughter and, in a nationally televised speech, to the nation.
The child is reportedly 20 months old, meaning she could have been
conceived as early as July 1998 -- a month before his visit with
president.
Rainbow-PUSH spokeswoman Keiana Peyton said Jackson told headquarters
staff of the affair Wednesday, but "he did not mention the time he
spent with President Clinton. He spoke only of his desire to face
this situation head on and focus on his family."
Last August, Clinton awarded Jackson the Medal of Freedom, the
nation's highest civilian honor. At that time, Jackson lavished
praise on his wife, Jackie, and his five children for supporting
him in his long civil rights career.
Jackson said his family was aware of the situation with the child
and was experiencing "an extremely painful, trying and difficult
time."
"I have asked God and each one of them to forgive me, and I thank each
of them for their grace and understanding throughout this period of
tribulation," Jackson said. "We have prayed together, and through
God's grace we have been reconciling."
Jackson said he would be taking an indefinite hiatus from his activist
activities, which included opposing the confirmation of
President-elect Bush's attorney general nominee John Ashcroft, to
"revive my spirit and reconnect with my family."
Jackson was not available for comment Thursday.
On Wednesday, he visited Xavier University in Louisiana with his
son, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., D-Ill., and went from there to Chicago.
Scanlon said Jackson's break from public life would not be immediate.
"We'll honor some of the earlier commitments he had and ... take a
look at what the other short-term commitments are," the spokesman said.
"It is hard to measure the impact of this personal tragedy on his
public role," Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., said. He said he has
known Jackson for 30 years and was surprised by the news.
Chicago Mayor Richard Daley called it "a personal thing with his wife and
his family" and would not comment. [Here, WFAA begins to duplicate the
text of the article. ???]
[SQ note: Isn't it interesting that adultery is OK if you put a
family values spin on it? This guy's supposed to be a "Reverend,"
and he can't follow his own book? Come on, Jackson supporters, let's
hear the excuses. And all you "The Bible says" homo-haters, let's
hear why you don't go after Jackson with the passion that you go
after gays. You know who you are, Richardson.]
---
* Origin: "Aw, piss on that. Piss on it!" * Jerry Jones (1:393/9005)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 16 Jan 01 21:26:52
EID:0a25 6230ab40
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1ab
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a62e19a
JW>> Nonsense. There is art, music, love, poetry, friendship...
MG>> There is rationality in all of the above.
JW> Well sure. But they are more sensual than rational...
I had no idea that they were mutually exclusive.
JW> And their style recognized a mile away...because those
JW> masters did/do interpret what they see. Not totally rational
JW> at all. Damn near all belong to a school or schools of
JW> art...
My point is that many painted precisely what they saw. A painting that
looks as if it was taken by a camera isn't much use to a romantic. At the
very best, a painting without any rationality isn't much use to anywone.
MG>> Love
MG>> and friendship is totally rational.
JW> Wow.
Yeah...wow. Wow that you edited out everything i said about not choosing
friends and loves at random which is are pretty rational decisions.
--- Msged/386 4.30
* Origin: The Icelandic Parliament (1:393/9005.221)
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 16 Jan 01 21:31:27
EID:0a25 6230abe0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1ac
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a62e778
MG>> This is the lack of
MG>> rationale that makes me wonder about deism.
JW> It's possibly because you just cannot think about things
JW> that lie beyond the scope of science. Or don't want to. Or
JW> don't believe that anything *can* lie beyond science's
JW> scope.
Guess why that is. It's because ***NOTHING*** lies beyond the field of
science. Anything that is real, of course.
MG>> ... the literalist will
MG>> often produce apologetics about how that passage doesn't
MG>> really mean that or it was a passage added later, et al.
JW> Not just the literalist, most biblical scholars depending
JW> on their field go talmudic over every jot and tittle...
And that's not apologetics? Can you not read the bible and accept it as
a giant metaphor with little that resembles reality?
MG>>> powerless to accomplsih good things without evil? The
MG>>> writer of the passage has attributed to god his own
MG>>> weakness.
JW>> Yes. Not a singular instance.
MG>> So the bible is not really divinely inspried but portrays
MG>> gods and religion based on the human experience of the
MG>> writers and no more?
JW> Yes, with the possible exception of your last three words.
JW> Some part are `God breathed' I think, but much is not only
JW> not but dull and boring.
What more could there be? What psace is there int he bible for a god concieved
by the writers and given their obvious human flaws? where does the truth
about a god start and the story end?
JW> Well, She dosn't really make a big effort to come up to
JW> your expectations. She's glad you're learning stuff
JW> though...
It sounds as if she needs to get her Masters in Teaching.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: God Dan
|To: WAYNE CHIRNSIDE
|Sub: Anybody not ice this
|Date: 18 Jan 01 02:39:05
EID:0ff3 623214e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a665749
-> On 17 Jan 01 04:08:00, WAYNE CHIRNSIDE got back to GOD DAN
-> On 14 Jan 01 07:16:08, John Wilson got back to Robert Sayre
RS> Here we go again, with the evidence
RS> requests...
JW> They never tire of it...
GD> It's called "learning". You should try that sometime.
WC> So obvious, so true and so elusive to the rabid fundy.
At least this one doesn't think that he's a fundy!
Makes it all the more fun.
... Famous Gods of the Bible #03! (ACT 19:35) Diana of the Ephesians.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: Soundly on the Fault Line (1:393/9005.30)
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|From: God Dan
|To: Richard Plinston
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 18 Jan 01 02:47:24
EID:116f 623215e0
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a66593c
-> On 17 Jan 01 07:53:26, Richard Plinston got back to God Dan
GD> So, you love homosexuals. Which one are you married to?
RS> You seem to have a very limited list of
RS> possibilities. Why are there only these
RS> extremes?
GD> So, you sometimes love them and then sometimes hate them?
RP> You appear to think that 'love' and 'hate' are the only
RP> options for this particular emotion.
So, yu sometimes love them and sometimes hate them? What do
you in the between? Be confused?
RP> as extremes on a line that also goes through: indifference,
RP> acceptance, like, dislike, in many degrees and combinations.
Why not just not let others personal proclivities be their own?
RP> You must have a very empty life (compared to me or others) if
Gee, nice attempt at a put-down. It must be the xian thing to
do to attrempt to shame non-xians into being complacent,
RP> there is such a large gap in your emotions such that only the
RP> extremes exist for you.
Put the towell in your mouth the next time. Your bruised lip
is bleeding.
... Hey! I'll bet you're that false Xtian scum I've heard so much about!
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
* Origin: Soundly on the Fault Line (1:393/9005.30)
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 18 Jan 01 02:48:39
EID:efbc 62321600
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a665987
-> On 16 Jan 01 10:54:04, John Wilson got back to Sally Springett
SS> So you annoint a human being to define homosexuality as a "sin,"
JW> Sorta like Adam naming the animals...
JW> "Adam why did you name that animal a `lion'"?
JW> "Well, it looked more like a lion than anything else...."
So, IOW, you don't have a fucking clue.
... "Faith is what you have when you have no facts." unknown.
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 18 Jan 01 02:51:11
EID:efbc 62321660
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a665a1f
-> On 16 Jan 01 18:59:00, John Wilson got back to God Dan
JW> Only if you take a saying emphasising contrasts with exaggeration
JW> literally.
GD> Yes, John, browse from the salad bar. Now, just how many more
GD> stories from th bible are yo going to claim are not true?
JW> Try me. It's *my* salid bar.
I only buy from reputable brokers.
JW> Sometimes you have to *think* about it.
The only thing that would amaze me is when you figure out how
to dothat.
... "If you want no flames, then cast none out onto the waters." Bob Curry
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: Curtis Johnson
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 18 Jan 01 03:02:44
EID:50c9 62321840
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a665cd4
-> On 15 Jan 01 07:11:18, Curtis Johnson got back to God Dan
CJ> The Babylonians used 3.0. 22/7 (3.18) was found to be servicable
GD> Bzzzt! 3.1428...
CJ> 22/7 is 3.18. . . Check it out.
GD> I do think I'll stand at my resultant... Close, but not quite Pi
GD> Care for a cream or chocolate one?
CJ> Paying me back for correcting you on your chemistry, I see. . .
Pay back's a bitch, isn't it? ;)
CJ> (_Understanding Physics_, _Intelligent Layman's Guide to the Physical
CJ> Sciences_, etc.) except for math.
GD> I'll look for it. ITMT, use a calculator not based on Windows
GD> and/or Pentium technology. ;)
CJ> ITMT? Oh, In The Mean Time.
CJ> I was using my head. I guess that shows my wetware's just a
CJ> chip off the old silicon block. "I'm just a poor
CJ> wafaring stranger. . ."
Shouldn't that be 'wafer-ing stranger'?
Yah gotta remember that when I started college, a slide rule was
High Tech! A couple of years later, the HP-64 was The King!
... "But WE decide which is right...and which is an illusion..."
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: God Dan
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Biblical contradictions
|Date: 18 Jan 01 03:04:19
EID:f822 62321880
PID: OMX 1.00.DOS [NR]
MSGID: 1:393/9005.30 3a665d33
-> On 16 Jan 01 21:46:12, John Wilson got back to Martin Goldberg
JW> What exactly do you mean "trust"? Faith? Hope?
JW> My God is unknowable.
Then, John, just how do you know your god exists?
... It doesn't get easier than this....
--- OMX/Blue Wave v2.12
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: John Wilson
|Sub: Obviously nuthin' much..
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:06:00
EID:0a25 6232a0c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1ad
REPLY: 1:153/7715.0 3a62e8e2
MG>> ...You see, you may believe in a
MG>> very loving, kindly, limited god or whatever but if you are
MG>> wrong you will pay.
JW> Well, it falls under the "whatever" in your sentence above.
JW> My religion dosn't include a payment Plan.
You keep saying that even though it has less than no bearing ont he subject.
givent he fact that you are human and prone to error, WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG?
What if the vengeful god of the OT is around waiting to send people to eternal
damnation just because they didn't worship the way he likes? it makes no
difference what you believe about your god if the possibility lies that
you are wrong.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Don Martin
|Sub: Dark Shadows
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:11:59
EID:d35d 6232a160
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1ae
REPLY: 1:261/1000.0 3a61ba42
DM> AAAIIIIEEEE! Not the light cone! _Any_thing but the
DM> light cone!
DM> ... Through a Jaundiced Eye Darkly--Rheum With a View
DM> (don.martin@mail.va.gov)
It would be interesting to see which end of the cone hec slaps on his ass.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: God Dan
|Sub: A really sick joke
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:14:20
EID:d939 6232a1c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1af
REPLY: 1:393/9005.30 3a61ebb7
GD> Do you know what Yoko Ono and Ethopians have in common?
GD> They both live off of dead Beatles.
But on the other hand, the entire nation of Ethiopia isn't as wierd as Yoko.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: God Dan
|Sub: Anybody notice this?
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:14:55
EID:75d4 6232a1c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1b0
REPLY: 1:393/9005.30 3a638397
MG>>> universe before the Big Bang?
GD>> Sounds like a conflict of income to me...
MG>> Gnaw. I smell fear.
GD> That could be senility. El Papo is not doing too well
GD> these days.
Not hardly. he may be getting older, but there's a reason that he dosen't
want us to look beyond time zero. With this convenient niche for his god
to hide in, he can still ask for "evidence of no god" (which all deists
do at one time or anther). With ignorance of the time before the universe
he is safe. Not so if Hawking puts that brainpower to work.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:53:33
EID:e7c9 6232a6a0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1b1
REPLY: 1:18/140 3d8325f3
MG>> Along with the bouquet of the finest tht the Honduras has
MG>> to offer.
ML> Next thing you know, you'll be sprinkling incest all over
ML> the place to cover the aroma.
Sprinkling INCEST? Do I look like a priest?
ML> Beware of atheists calling your lab in the near future.`
I didn't take your advice and should have had the bourbon detector on the
phone.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: Chuckie does the KJV
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:54:56
EID:e7c9 6232a6c0
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1b2
REPLY: 1:18/140 25aa3168
ML> 'Sides that, ya got it wrong. Schlitz was the beer that
ML> made Milwaukee famous.
Which was more often than not, ordered by young studs as a "Griesidik" to
bored barmaids who had never heard the joke before.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: Martin Goldberg
|To: Marty Leipzig
|Sub: HOLYSMOKE-LIST Digest
|Date: 18 Jan 01 20:56:01
EID:8cfc 6232a700
MSGID: 1:393/9005.221 3a64b1b3
REPLY: 1:18/140 8ed66469
MG>> You've given up rocks and gone into used cars or religion?
ML> Neither. I'm just giving Immunologists grief.
Good grief.
MG>> Why would you lie about liking bourbon? (This is a
MG>> rhetorical question)
ML> Suited for a rhetorical response "Because there's nothing
ML> left bad to say about scotch."
Another of the world's thinnest books.
--- Msged/386 4.30
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|From: ROSS SAUER
|To: ALL
|Sub: Munch munch......
|Date: 18 Jan 01 19:56:00
EID:bb8c 62329f00
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 190542b7
TZUTC: -0500
I decided to make my favorite snack for eating while doing this packet.
I call it "BBQ beef le Sauer"
A pound of hamburger, microwaved until it's beginning to get crispy,
half a can of condensed tomato soup, and a pound of shredded colby and
monterey cheese.
Nuked until the cheese melts.
Pretty good!
þ CMPQwk 1.42 16554 þ
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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|From: JITENDER SAAN
|To: ALL
|Sub: Light ...
|Date: 19 Jan 01 10:26:00
EID:9e62 62335340
TID: PX/Win v3.0pr5 PX96-0466M2
MSGID: 1:18/140 1449dc20
TZUTC: -0500
http://www.deccan.com/itop1.htm
UK scientists bring light to halt, store and release it
-------------------------------------------------------
London, Jan. 18: Researchers say they have slowed light to a dead stop,
stored it and then released it as if it were an ordinary material
particle.
The achievement is a landmark feat that, by reining in nature’s swiftest
and most ethereal form of energy for the first time, could help realise
what are now theoretical concepts for vastly increasing the speed of
computers and the security of communications.
Two independent teams of physicists have achieved the result, one led by
Lene Vestergaard Hau of Harvard University and the Rowland Institute for
Science in Cambridge, Mass, and the other by Ronald L Walsworth and
Mikhail D Lukin of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics,
Cambridge.
Light normally moves through space at 186,000 miles a second. Ordinary
transparent media like water, glass and crystal slow light slightly, an
effect that causes the bending of light rays that allows lenses to focus
images and prisms to produce spectra.
Using a distantly related but much more powerful effect, the
Walsworth-Lukin team first slowed and then stopped the light in a medium
that consisted of specially prepared containers of gas.
In this medium, the light became fainter and fainter as it slowed and
then stopped. By flashing a second light through the gas, the team could
essentially revive the original beam.
The beam then left the chamber carrying nearly the same shape, intensity
and other properties it had when it entered. The experiments led by Hau
achieved similar results with closely related techniques.
---
Satan
"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to
grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no
action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of
spirit." -- Mayar, Third Keeper
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|From: Blanche Nonken
|To: Mark Kimes
|Sub: Re: Uri Geller's "novel"
|Date: 18 Jan 01 08:51:30
EID:7ec2 62324660
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 3be69ab9
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
REPLYADDR HOLYSMOKE-LIST@salata.com
GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Blanche Nonken
X-Ftn-To: Mark Kimes
(posted TO: Mark Kimes)
FTN-Posted-By: Blanche Nonken
> (posted TO: Blanche Nonken)
>
> FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
Did you email this, or do you want me to forward this to the newsgroup?
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: Sally Springett
|Sub: Re: Apologetics
|Date: 17 Jan 01 15:32:40
EID:7b7b 62317c00
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 be2da416
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
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GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: Sally Springett
(posted TO: Sally Springett)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: Sally Springett
> It's easy to see why they call the kind
> of argument that explains the crueler
> workings of unreason "apologetics."
Ouch!
---
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|From: Mark Kimes
|To: MARTY LEIPZIG
|Sub: Re: Anthropic bullshit
|Date: 17 Jan 01 16:23:10
EID:acbe 623182e0
MSGID: 1:102/125.99 1ca0535f
REPLYTO 1:102/125.99 UUCP
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GID GIGO+ sn 148 at salata vsn 0.99.970109
From: Mark Kimes
X-Ftn-To: MARTY LEIPZIG
(posted TO: MARTY LEIPZIG)
FTN-Posted-By: Mark Kimes
> FTN-Posted-By: MARTY LEIPZIG
I see John-boy is trying to resurrect Al B.'s favorite topic, "anthropic
coincidences" as proof of gods. I've got a canned reply I thought I'd throw
into the echo to maybe shitcan the debate before it bores everyone to death:
==============================
The universe contains a number of fundamental numbers, like the size of
the
electric charge of an electron and the strength of the gravitational force.
These values cannot, at least at present, be predicted from theory -- they
must be observed. A fully unified theory of physics may someday predict
all
or most of them, but it is also possible that they could have had varying
values. Had they varied, the universe might not have been suitable for
the
development of intelligent life.(1)
Some people have taken this as a brute fact: the universe is the way it
is,
regardless of the odds of it being such that intelligent life could develop
in it. If it were not so, we wouldn't be around to comment on it, but it
is, so we are. I'll call this "the brute fact hypothesis."
Others have taken this as evidence of the existence of other universes,
and
we either won the cosmic lottery or are in a universe that evolved from
parent universes toward conditions that favored the development of black
holes (the reproduction method) -- conditions which also favor the
development of intelligent life. John Gribbin has written a couple of good
books on this subject. I'll call this the "ensemble universe hypothesis."
Still others feel that a fully unified theory will show that universes must
be, or are likely to be, like ours. Stephen Hawking is an example of
someone who thinks this may be the answer. I'll call this the "likely
universe hypothesis."
A few people have gotten it into their heads that all this indicates that
god exists. Their reasoning is like this: The brute fact hypothesis is
an
unsatisfactory explanation, the ensemble universes hypothesis violates
Occam's razor, and the likely universe hypothesis is ruled out because they
can think of many "logical" universes which would not support life. I'll
call this the "anthropic theism hypothesis." George Ellis is a proponent
of
this idea.
I will note here that there may be other explanations we haven't thought
of
yet. But, for now, let's examine the anthropic theist's points in more
detail, in relation to the other explanations above, working from last to
first. Then, finally, we'll take a closer look at anthropic theism.
The Likely Universe Hypothesis
The fact that we humans can imagine many different "logical" universes which
don't support life lends no credibility to the idea that there must,
therefore, be fully unified theories that could describe all those
universes. It may be, as Hawking states, that there are only a few, or
even
one, fully unified theory available. In order for our anthropic theist's
argument against this explanation to have any weight, he must produce many
different "logical" unified theories, not just vary constants, and then
he
must show that they could be actualized. Good luck.
The Ensemble Universes Hypothesis
The principle of parsimony known as Occam's razor states that one should
not
multiply entities without reason. Our anthropic theist would argue that
it
is more reasonable to postulate one god than many universes (why only one
god? More on that later). One can compare this to a claim that it's more
reasonable to postulate one magical unicorn than many horses. We know that
universes exist, but we do not know that gods exist. Ergo, Occam's razor
actually seems to favor the ensemble universes hypothesis, not anthropic
theism.
The Brute Fact Hypothesis
Is this really an unsatisfactory explanation? Perhaps, in the sense that
one would have to positively rule out all other explanations in order to
_know_ that it was correct. But, is the god hypothesis any better? Is
it
even as good?
God could explain why the universe is the way it is, if we hypothesize the
right kind of god to match what we see in the universe (in other words,
a
god that wanted intelligent physical life to develop for some reason and
didn't mind taking what would appear to be a rather inefficient route to
get
to that point, etc.).
Now hang on a minute. Isn't what we're trying to explain values that can
only be determined from observation? How is matching a god to observation
any more satisfying than matching values to observation? How is saying,
"according to what I see, god must be like this" any better than saying
"according to what I see, the electron charge is this?"
And can anthropic theism actually explain things better than the brute fact
hypothesis? Anthropic theism trades the secrets of various universe
co